July 30, 2011
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Female Careerism
Two men talking on a men’s pick up artists web site. The side topic, career driven woman, and the fact that they tend not to stay very happy.
Ivon
The reason why women have to be in jobs to support their families is many fold, but one of the main reasons is because *they are in their jobs*.
Think about the basic laws of supply and demand: If you doubled the supply, and only slightly raised the demand, the value of that good is going to lower. Likewise, when you have added females to the working class (hence, ‘doubled the supply’), and only slightly risen demand due to slightly increased female wants, the value of all workers is going to decrease. It is a natural, and completely inevitable, process. Market forces at work.
daveySpot on Ivan. A LOT of women are also not interested in supporting a man and children, men, especially married men are much less selfish and materialistic than women. Add to that the fact that a lot of women are failing at life and motherhood at cost to everyone else. There needs to be a huge overhaul somewhere i feel, taxes and inflation can’t keep increasing, while birthrates and marriage rates plummet this next generation will be lost financially and emotionally.
The patriarchal model really was much better at delivering a decent standard of living to families and children.
Grow up people, it’s still easy enough to support a family, just not easy to support conspicuous consumption….. It’s too bad that the corresponding growth in consumption that they would want has all been debt funded and based on mindless materialism and corruption. It’s also too bad that women aren’t productive enough to significantly lower the cost of healthcare, education, energy, information + communications technology or transport.
It’s the same as the peasant immigrant dilemma, what happens when you allow lots of uneducated and unintelligent third world immigrant into your country?
That’s right, blue collar wages go down, unemployment go up, key important costs stay the same. What part of that helps people in general(immigrant or “native”) afford healthcare or an education??
The truth of it is, women are not productive enough and don’t advance technology and efficiency enough to offset the impact on wages. The power they have in consumer markets is also unwarranted and ill advised.Just as well there are a few properties in my family and my mum lives in a million dollar house, because even earning decent money at 23 i can’t be fucked to move out, And ill take a pass on those 3 Rothschild mortgages and remortgages that are waiting for me, I’ll buy my yard outright thanks. That’s If I’m not more focused making more money with that money.
Does it really take zen like wisdom and calm to just be happy not having something that requires you getting into debt? People used to get into debt for good and interesting reasons like investment and starting a business, now your average chump Joe and hypergamous Jane are raping themselves just for inanimate trash.
These men are not happy, they feel persecuted by a “woman’s world”. I could bash them for their crying, I disagree with them all over the place. But in the end both of them made very good points. In a family both partners need a job mostly because that is the way everyone else is doing it. All those extra wage earners in the market place drive down wages and increase costs. And the side note of greed and materialism is right on.
Any thoughts on this one?
Are we even allowed to admit that there is a problem here?
The old way is dead and never coming back, but is the new way really a better way?
Can the new way be fixed?
Or is the new way prefect?
Comments (49)
Nah. I think that now, it pretty much rolls out to whoever takes up whatever role in the house that they are most comfortable with, is what they do. However, feminism pushed it on all females. I would think you were wrong but I heard a story from a friend that during her senior year, her counselor pushed her into choosing a college/career, when she instead wanted to be a stay at home mom.
I would say they made zero good points.
Women in the workforce isn’t a negative thing. It’s a good thing. No, an essential thing! In a patriarchal society, women were essentially second class citizens. In a patriarchal household it was the same deal. People will argue with me and say, ”Well marriages stayed in tact! Divorce statistics have now increased since women started working!” Why? Because back in the patriarcal days women had no where to go if their husbands were abusive, cheating etc… Women had no steady income to provide for their families – essentially no options. Now they have options. Women working (or women with degrees and the opportunity to work if worse comes to worse) force men to treat women as equals. They can’t abuse their power and treat their women badly; for, if they do women have a many more options if they want to leave. (You know instead of being homeless with three or so children.)
More women working doesn’t mean there’s too much supply and not enough demand. It simply means more competition for men. And if you can’t handle the heat then get out of the kitchen!
And women have been excelling in numerous high paying career fields, like law and medicine etc… There are more women than men enrolled in my boyfriend’s law school, for example. The top students in my engineering classes (which were mostly guys) were women! The idea that women can’t keep up with technology etc… is BS. Again it simply means more competition for men.
The fact that men AND women don’t know how to treat their partners/marriages properly is not an issue of women working. To me the problem with relationships/marriages is that people can’t break out of those traditional roles. Men expect to be the breadwinners and don’t want their women making more than them. Women expect to be “kept” well by their male partners. Etc… etc… These made up societal pressures can put strain on a marriage.
If we focused more on the individual we’re engaged in a relationship with and not on whether or not they fulfill some expected role we’d probably have a lot less problems.
@AmeliaHart - So the laws of supple and demand do not apply this one time. And the many woman (A majority) who want to stay home and raise children Something that was once the norm on just a single salary. They should just stuff it?
@AmeliaHart - The rest of what you wrote, I did not address because I agree with you. I do not think those two guys have their heads on strait. But I see that they address real issues, and what they believe is widely believed
@trunthepaige - If someone wants to stay home and raise their children that’s fine. My point is that allowing for women to work and making it viable for them to have a career gives them options. Not everyone has to work, but the key is that women aren’t relegated to only being housewives. They can be housewives if they choose to be. But they can also go out and work. This freedom forces women to be treated as equals. Men can’t abuse their power over women if they have options – if they have other avenues. (And I’d like to note that I’m not saying all men are abusers. I am saying that in this kind of system women are less likely to be subject to abuse.)
Oh boy do I hate this.
Making men and women equal in the workforce was a grave mistake that we’re stuck with. It was done because of greed, because our governors assumed that the lower castes didn’t matter and could pay more taxes that way. Not only does it break up the family unit, but it also results in a powerstruggle from Hell. Men are naturally better than women in almost every respect: stronger, smarter, faster, better. This equality-thing messes up the natural order. I know that not all girls are worse than all guys, but there is biology behind a majority.
I got screwed over because I was damned if I did, damned if I didn’t. I can’t marry or have a family because I can’t afford it, and I’m not the only one. Without women being dependent on men, there isn’t as much social pressure for men to stay with their women and the reverse.
My wife chose to be a stay at home mom and live on my low income. She still feels the same looking back. Our materialism suffered for many years because did not start making good money until I was about 57.
I was there when gals entered the professional work force and I found them an asset. It is not true now, but at first they cleaned up the language in the office. Girlie calendars vanished. They also did a good job.
They men quoted here are simply pointing out that the pie is now cut more fairly, but they do not like the consequences. I understand that, but like you said we will never go back to the past.
These guys are full of shit.
I work 60 hours a week to support my currently unemployed MALE partner.
I suppose maybe I should get my ass back in the kitchen though eh?
@Colorsofthenight - You know by your thought process we can safely say that Oriental Asian Men are clearly the superior race/gender. For not only do they statistically do better in math and science and school in general, they also developed martial arts and can Jackie Chan any white, Hispanic or black man’s ass. OR we can stop with generalizations and look at people as individuals.
But to address your generalizations men are biologically stronger but they are not biologically smarter. With more equal footing in education women – statistically- have actually excelled past men in many subjects in school. Does that mean women are smarter? No of course not, but I imagine that women are pushed even harder to prove themselves which results in more women doing better and going on to college etc… etc…
Moreover, strength doesn’t necessarily equal better either! I mean a bear is stronger than a man – a cheetah is faster than a man. Does that make them better than man? No. Also if you look back on our ancestry with our closely related Neanderthals, we see that the smaller but smarter Homo sapiens won out.
Wonderfully said! GOOD JOB! THANK YOU!
@AmeliaHart - you’re right. I do view asian men as superior. I don’t look at people but at numbers for purposes. While the ruling elite were able to make an extra dime off of women workers, they have paid tenfold in welfare programs and other programs designed to help fallouts. Not only but they’ve created more social problems that cause children to struggle.
To cater to your argument and offset the extreme stance that you took, individuals have always blasted above the social mode from Queens to stars, but there’s a reason the majority should be governed in a certain way and that reason is group products, or so I think.
Thank you for your thoughts.
@AmeliaHart - the male brain is different and tends to score superior to women. There’s a derth of women in math and science fields. I can’t help but see a general correlation.
@Colorsofthenight - Most women (statistically speaking) who fall into the welfare programs do not have higher education. If women have higher education they are less likely to fall into welfare programs. This supports my point more so than yours where you would rather have women relegated to a role where they would not be given the opportunity for a higher education.
You say men are smarter and you say you like numbers – well statistically women are now doing better in school than men. More women are in college programs than men. So what does that mean then? (For you that is, I already told you what I think.)
I personally think that men excelled in education (previous to women equality) was simply because women were not given the opportunity. Women were second class citizens. Now that women are given the opportunity we are rising to the occassion as evidenced by statistics. As evidenced by numbers. So what does that mean then?
I don’t think women in the workplace is a bad thing. However, I am frustrated with the feminist movement trying to tell women that they are BETTER women, stronger & smarter for getting a career than if they choose to get married & raise children. It’s ridiculous, wrong & infuriating.
Children do better if one of their parents can be home with them. They do better academically, emotionally, maturity, etc. Just 3-5 hours a day with your kids is NOT enough. Whether that be the mother or the father home & with them doesn’t matter. As long as they’re being a good parent & treating the kids well.
Those guys have some serious issues though. I hope that they are single because I can’t imagine they’d make good spouses with attitudes like that.
@AmeliaHart - I go by numbers, so if they’re doing better in school, which I’m still not seeing in the math and science fields, then they are superior, but there are still social roles that have to be filled to keep a family intact. And they score on average 3 points lower than men on the ACT.
Now, I like when people are equal. I just don’t see it as efficient. I try to separate my personal philosophy from my big box of how things work.
@Colorsofthenight - A study was done showing that there is no difference between girls and boys in math. This also addresses your ACT point. More girls are taking standardized tests than boys (because more girls are going to college) thus skewing your data.
http://articles.latimes.com/2008/jul/25/science/sci-math25
But I wouldn’t go as far as say that women are better than men. Generalizations will not help the situation we have when it comes to keeping relationships and marriages in tact. And it won’t help in trying to raise our children properly. It’s wholly deterimental.
@Colorsofthenight - If we continually try to put people into nice and neat boxes – “stay at home moms” and “bread winner dads” we will see more dischord than harmony. Perhaps it (somewhat) worked back then but it won’t work now.
I’m not saying that women should NEVER be housewives. I have a cousin who went to Princeton and Yale who is now staying home to raise her four kids. It’s different for everyone. We should encourage people to make choices – for whatever fits their situation – and not judge them based on old stereotypes.
@AmeliaHart - true, I always get boxed myself. It’s impossible for me to with my social standings support a family. I’m mentally dull and have other mental problems, but people try to force me. It’s strange I have the mentality about it that I have. I guess I see my situation as a minority one not relevant to the crux of the argument.
You have a good heart to see “people.”
@Colorsofthenight - I’m sorry to hear you are dealing with issues. I hope you don’t live your life believing in generalizations and just made arguments for the sake of arguing (I do that sometimes for fun.) If you do hopefully with time you will break away from whatever mental bounds have kept you from pursuing your goals.
@AmeliaHart - we read different literature because I’ve seen brain studies that show differences.
http://www.thirdage.com/love-romance/the-male-vs-the-female-brain?page=1
http://www.webmd.com/balance/features/how-male-female-brains-differ
@Colorsofthenight - The article you sent highlights differences though doesn’t say which one is better!
We are continually trying to understand how our brain works. Boys being better at math has been a long held belief but test scores as of late show otherwise.
@AmeliaHart - thanks, I have schizophrenia, which has destroyed my brain. I don’t deal with delusions as much, but I have cognitive problems that irritate me, like perceptional problems.
I don’t argue to argue. It’s just difficult here on xanga because we both have different opinions and ways of thinking. It’s not like I know you. I prefer generalizations to abstract reasoning. I don’t believe that the exception is that important. My thinking is more concrete and effective IF I have enough details.
I suppose we should stop inking the page. It was nice getting your input. It helped me develop for my next argument.
@AmeliaHart - no, I couldn’t find my articles. Most people are afraid, in my opinion, due to political correctness.
I would say that the articles show why males tend to do better in areas that are important to the world.
http://www.cerebromente.org.br/n11/mente/eisntein/cerebro-homens.html here’s a better one.
To argue, but not with you, I’d say that if more women are doing better in college, how come they are scoring lower on the ACT? There are more of them. By that logic, they should be doing worse in college.
But I’ll stop this. Don’t worry. Thanks again.
I value female coworkers, and I always have. If I married and my wife makes more than me, so what? What my wife does has nothing to do with me. If she makes more money its not because of anything I do or don’t do. If my wife makes more money than I do its because of what she does. I don’t get how a woman makes more money somehow threatens me?
Do you know what? The Bible agrees with me. Look at Proverbs 31. Proverbs 31 is often called “The Virtuous Wife ” Proverb. But, in fact, Proverbs 31 should be called, “The Virtuous Husband” Proverb. In that proverb we are told that women purchase fields, work in business, but the one thing not said is that women weren’t educated in Jewish society to buy and sell. The virtuous wife needed a virtuous husband in order to learn how to conduct business. So, in God’s word, men are encouraged to help their wives become all they can possibly be. In Proverbs 31, we’re told, “Her husband is respected at the city gate.”
So there!
Lonnie
Always interesting to read the views of the next generations after all the work we all did to get women a few actual rights (although, sadly, equal work is still not equal pay).
@Diva_Jyoti_3 - Well yeah I would think that anyone who grew up when there really was discrimination against woman wold have a totally different view
I don’t think there is anything that needs to be fixed about both genders being in the work force other than the issues related to pay equality and glass ceilings related to gender. Wait, there is the sexual harassment issue too. Seems like having men and women in the work force has been this way it is for many years and has worked pretty good.
“All those extra wage earners in the market place drive down wages and increase costs.”
That’s a huge fallacy. Because as we’ve seen recently with GE and other global multi-national corporations, it’s easy to outsource to find cheaper, and often better employees. That is what is really driving down wages.
We need more women in the workplace. Especially hot women. And hang the economic impact! It’s about principle. But they should be required to wear burqas or hajiib so that their male colleagues will not fall into temptation.
Yes adding more workers to the work force makes it more competitive. Sorry men have to compete with women now. boohoo. I’m not giving up on my dream of being an experimental neuroscientist because I happened to be born with ovaries and the people who happened to be born with testes somehow magically deserve those jobs more by virtue of their genitalia
by this logic if only women worked and men stayed home the result would be the same wonderful world
there are positives and negatives to everything, nothing’s perfect, but I feel very secure in saying that the benefits of allowing women to pursue their career dreams if they have them far outweigh the negatives.
Almost all the women in my family have careers and their children and families are doing just fine; not a single divorce and very little dysfunction.
not even going to address the claims that women aren’t as productive as men or that we’re more materialistic/more likely to get into debt because there’s simply no reason but bigotry to believe that.
I agree with much of what was said. I think women working is definitely hurting things. As well as destroying families in the process. So much wrong here.
In a capitalist economy each worker is an asset. More workers, more wealth.
Liberalism has killed out society and our economy making each person a liability rather than an asset.
With careful balance it may be easier to employ all adults rather than all of either gender and none of the other. I’d suggest this may be true even if the combined earning in the former scenario ends up to be similar to just one working in the latter.
More people to do the same amount of work means a lighter workload per person. If people didn’t demand, nor did others create, garbage products designed to be replaced often, people had a mind to balance their home budget and look for ways to cut costs without cutting corners, then a small percent of the current workforce would cover all needs of the entire population if worked hard 40 hours per week (or everyone lightly or few hours/week). Keeping up high rates of production of products not designed for long term economic sustainability will in the end be just as bad as a very high unemployment rate which would be unavoidable without large amounts of otherwise unnecessary massively redundant and repeated work.
I’m confident there are ways to fix that equation. But simply pushing for more jobs won’t.
If I had the right education and position, I’d look into the idea of on demand employment for any kind of unlicensed labor without it being another major headache for either businesses or individuals. One idea is that a person who needs a few dollars on a given day just walk into the property of an on demand employer, do a prescribed work load, then get paid a preset or negotiated fee.
Has there ever been a time when women did not have to work to make ends meet? Pre-industrial revolution, the women worked in the fields as well. One the factories started, the poor of both genders worked or starved. Dividing the lower orders by race, gender, religion or any other criteria keeps them from organising, and that is the whole point as far as the boss class is concerned.
In patriarchal societies, women are property to all intents and purposes and no true democrat or socialist can accept that.
That was interesting because I absolutely hated 95% of what they were saying and 100% of HOW they were saying it, but that last little 5% of content was actually worth thinking about.
I can see how a “sudden” (sudden, in terms of generations) influx of workers would do damage, but the question is how we will compensate for that in the future, right? Will we increase our societal demands to justify the workforce or will we increase our standards for the workforce we already have or will we just keep outsourcing everything and ignoring profit margins to the point where EVERYONE has to work two jobs literally just to buy bread and milk each week?
There’s a lot in this. It’s never as simple as it looks.
I think the idea someone said in the comments about our culture seeing each person as a liability instead of an asset is right-on. We are stuck in the mental position of considering people as a problem rather than as a solution. It applies across the board. If people were seen as the solution, more marriages would be given a second chance and invested into more strategically. If people were seen as the solution, untapped resources would be discovered more quickly and funded more readily to answer the problems of overpopulated areas. If people were seen as the solution, education would be much more practical for the majority and apprenticeships would be the norm, not the exception. If people were seen as the solution, customer service wouldn’t have to be a separate entity within every major company.
Anyway……..
~V
I recommended initial comments made by Paige and Amelia above because I think there is a debate in male minds, and perhaps in female as well. I saw Frank’s comments about having those scare finance years, with his wife staying home. I can relate. I think that there is an oversupply of workers for the number of jobs available. But, it is not the government’s job to create more jobs. It is our responsibility to create jobs by doing things to add value to society. My desire is that the government pull back its overreaching influence through taxation and regulations and allow private industry to grow. That will take care of much of this problem.
Paige (trunthepaige), I think both of the guys make some valid points.
@davidian - I hear you, regarding outsourcing, but I wonder if you have not, just in that observation, made the point that it really is the lack of sufficient amount of jobs, due to somebody getting too big a slice of the pie. As a laborer, it is easy to look at the “fat cat employer”, and think he and his associates are the problem. But what about us? Are we demanding so much that there are fewer of us they can hire: we cost too much? It is an idea that we need to consider.
@Colorsofthenight - With a larger pool the ACT sampling would be skewed.
When it comes to college it shows that even with a larger pool women are doing better. That just further proves my point.
And while your article highlights the differences between men and women (which is undeniable) it doesn’t make the assertion that you make that men are somehow better.
And it doesn’t explain why women still do well in math and do well in standardized testing as shown in my previous article.
@AmeliaHart - with those articles, I have to argue a bit in-context, and they are highly politicially correct. I couldn’t find mine, and I wasn’t going to type in “male superior” to just get what I wanted. Male brains have better abilities in some areas that relate to real world problems like spatial understandings. Women can overcome this, but initially males have an advantage. I realize that there are a lot of exceptions to this rule, like Queen Elizabeth.
I’m not arguing with you just to argue. Please note this. I do feel that males are superior and perhaps this is just a social understanding that tags along with social roles, and it’s skewed my perception all around.
When I was talking about the results, I was pointing a fallacy in thought, not a point.
@Colorsofthenight - But the argument of “politically correct” is simply an opinion. You said you wanted facts and numbers. I gave you statistics and numbers, yet your response is it may be simply a “politcally correct” article.
And by point I simply mean that you are interpreting your numbers improperly. The ACT scores and the GPAs of college students are skewed because there is a larger pool of females than males. The fact that the ACT scores are a few points lower are attributed to the fact that there are more females taking the test and thus a greater chance of lowering the average. Morever the fact that females are STILL doing better in college regardless of having a larger pool simply shows that females excel in college.
And when it came to the math issue in the article they gave their statistics. You haven’t given me any scientific or mathematical reasoning on how those specific statistics are skewed, other than your own opinion which is neither scientific or mathematical. That argument just an emotional response based on your own personal experience and observations.
@AmeliaHart - like I said I couldn’t find my exact evidence. The internet doesn’t have a mixed result, and it is politically correct, citing possibility instead of fact. I tried the other strategy, and all it says is excuses. I do go by numbers. There are more men in math and science despite the equality that women have enjoyed. There are differences in brain structure that must give men an advantage in certain respects. I believe that men are superior but not in all regards and some women do, do better.
@AmeliaHart - you could very well be right that my opinion is messed up and that I’m finding what I want ot support the argument.
@Colorsofthenight - ”there are more men in math and science.”
This blog was about how women joining the workforce is a recent phenomenon. So of course there are going to currently be more men in math and science than women. That was the long held belief and women were generally not encouraged in those fields. But that demographic is changing slowly but surely. And that is evidenced by numbers, which is what you told me you base your opinions on.
Women before were just relegated to being housewives and only housewives (and nuns.) The roles have expanded and my statistics and numbers have shown in these expanding roles, women are rising to the occasion. The growth is more slow in math and science fields but as it says in the article I gave you – high school students both male and female perform at par with one another. I believe they tested 7.2 mil. That’s numbers right there for you.
@AmeliaHart - okay, I surrender. Your argument wins! Mine feel apart like a wet diaper. =(
I was wrong.
@Colorsofthenight - Well I wouldn’t say you’re just flat out wrong! Men and women are different as you point out. Specfically when it comes to math and science I would say while they may have different approaches both genders can excel in those fields.
I would just say that the argument of who is “better” is where we or we had previously disagreed. But in the end we need both for this (human) world to keep turning.
@AmeliaHart - well, have a good day =)