February 26, 2013
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Dorner’s Killings and Death in Retrospect
Christopher Dorner, was justly killed after a series of murders aimed at terrorizing the LAPD and those who were family members of LAPD’s officers. He was obviously a very disturbed man, intelligent but malignant.
Since he was a former cop, I did not hear any suggestions that his case showed the need for more gun control. But I also did not hear anyone pointing out that he likely was dangerously insane. That insanity was the most telling thing about Christopher Dorner. But no one in the major media is was talking about that. No but after other dangerously insane people committed murders in Tucson, Aurora and at Sandy Hook all you could hear about the problem, was that there was too great an availability of guns to average the citizen (more gun control). But what about mental illness? These guys were all obviously dangerous to themselves, if not others long before they killed anyone.
Back in the 1970s there was legislation around the country that deinstitutionalized the mentally ill. Since then while gun ownership rates have increased and crime rates have decreased. But the number of insane people committing horrific murders has increased.
Maybe some good came from deinstitutionalization. But we should be doing a better job of caring for mentally ill people in general. Much more attention, very close attention, is needed. Especially for those who pose a danger to themselves and others. This is not a violation of human rights (like ignoring the second amendment). It is humane common sense for the individuals involved and for society. Some people do need to be cared for in mental health institutions. Its simply cruel to be letting them fend for themselves and it can be dangerous.
Where are the major media on this subject?
Does anyone think that leaving the mentally ill on the streets is a good idea?
Comments (62)
Posing a danger to others, maybe. But not a danger to one’s self. Bodily autonomy includes the right to injure, maim, and dare I say it, even kill one’s self. The state has no right to intervene in cases of self-injury or attempted suicide.
If self-injurous behavior turns outwards or there’s a sign it will, then yes, intervention is needed for the protection of others (and that doesn’t include taking away guns, that’ll just make the problem worse). I’m just saying, “danger to one’s self” is not a good reason to commit someone because it is a violation of personal autonomy.
yep, yep. I completely agree. Our suicide rates far outnumber our murder rates, yet mental health is still a taboo topic. It’s a shame.
The pharmaceutical companies would much rather rake in the bucks selling lots of pills than for anyone to get any real treatment for anything. And they are some of the owners of Congress.
@trunthepaige - Where do you draw the line? There’s the problem with that. You cannot violate the personal autonomy of those who know damn well what they’re doing (as that’s a clear violation of personal rights), and you can’t always tell. You’re almost damned if you do, damned if you don’t.
@ShimmerBodyCream - Its insane even taking gang violence into account 70+% of deaths by guns are suicides. Taking gang violence out of it (drug trafficking) we are least violent nations on earth. BUt we have a real issue with not taking care of our mentally ill
@mtngirlsouth - the drug companies do not make as much money if the sick get real treatment. Just sell them some pills and move on
@secretbeerreporter - Oh yes you can its rather easy. If they are not living in the real world they need to be protected, treated. Right now they starve to death and die from the cold all in the name of a fake civil right. The right to be insane and die. And in some cases kill. When a person is not living in the real world. One day the voices say walk in front of the car. The next day they could say push that person in front of the car., But often they just say things like don’t eat don’t come in from the cold, drink from the gutter….
I’m very passionate about this, it’s refreshing to see someone take a common sense approach. Basically, like you said, guns are a tool, taking them away does not stop violence because it doesn’t address the root causes of violence (in this and some other cases, mental illness). In cities like Chicago and DC, where you find the nation’s most restrictive gun laws, you also find the highest crime rates committed by guns despite strong anti-gun laws. In countries that have taken away guns (like England), you see a disproportionately high rate of crimes committed by knives (and there is a growing movement in the medical community there to ban kitchen knives as a result too).
Bottom line is that you aren’t going to solve violent crimes if you don’t correct their root causes… just taking away guns is not the answer.
@secretbeerreporter - As someone else pointed out, the decision to take one’s own life can and often does jeopardize the lives of others at the scene.
@quest4god@revelife - That’s neither here nor there when it comes to the right to take ONE’S OWN LIFE. We’re not talking about taking another’s life, just one’s own (as the vast majority of suicides are just that and not so-called “murder-suicides”). Some lives aren’t worth living, and only the person in question has the right to determine whether his/her own life is worth living.
Well, the state cannot afford to put them in “homes” anymore, which is why they either go to prison (which becomes a cycle for them), die after going on rampages, or go to homes to take care of them paid for by the family
@secretbeerreporter - That is not the point if you are sane no one will be able to stop you from killing yourself. If you are not rational, you do not have the ability to make a rational choice.
@Doubledb - The mental hospitals need to be reopened. its just the way its is
I’ve never been able to make up my mind about the mentally ill being out of institutions. There are a lot of heavily medicated people holding down good jobs and supporting families. By the same token, there are a lot who are homeless. It case has to be evaluated on its own merits. It is hard problem with no easy answers.
My answer has nothing to do with gun control.
If the mentally ill don’t have insurance, let um mumble to themselves homeless on the street? I thought that was the Conservative Mantra. Makers not takers?
Wasn’t it your patron saint who emptied all the Mental Insitutions?
@tendollar4ways - Yes he did (though I was not born then) it was a very poplar idea at the time. One supported by the most liberal of politicians. Reagan was also pro abortion at one time
@C_L_O_G - The ones who can function would not be institutionalized. And my take on this is that a solution to the problem has nothing to do with gun control ether
I see the new Pot Law is in full effect there in Washington! Liberals were for defunding the Mental Health Systems Act?
Early 1980′s, Same as it ever was….Conserves throwing poor, sick people too the streets to line their own pockets and tax breaks. Takers not makers.
Ya gotta send me some of that Stuff!!!
@tendollar4ways - Yes it was liberals. they had just watched “One flew over the Cuckoo’s nest” an were crying “set my people free”…yes it was liberals not that conservatives ever mind saving money
@tendollar4ways - Weed might as well have been legal here for a long time. It was an officially unenforced law in Seattle. Prices are dropping
@trunthepaige - Link ? Since the Mental Health Systems Act was Carter’s last accomplishment I find this assertion to be smelling of Washington Green!
@tendollar4ways - Reagan is given credit for it in California. He started the ball rolling. I doubt anyone is proud of that after seeing the results
Good question!!
i don’t believe he was ever diagnosed to be mentally ill.
@davidian - No he was not. But those around him saw the anger paranoia and persecution complex. Could anything have stopped him? I do not know if anyone wanted to try and commit him. I doubt he would have shown the way he fully felt to anyone who could have had him committed. He was smart and rational even though he was suffering from a few personality disorders. Did you read his manifesto?
The problem with your reasoning is that Dorner (among many others) was not identified as mentally ill until after he began his rampage, and thus was not being watched by anybody. The result of releasing the mentally ill from institutions has been a huge influx of homeless people with no care, no oversight, and therefore no preventive measures — as you say, that is cruel and dangerous.
@slmret - It would have far more beneficial results that playing with gun laws that have been proven to have no beneficial results. And most of them were diagnosed as mentally ill. Almost all of them were being treated for it. Maybe nothing could have stopped Dorner
@trunthepaige - call me a skeptic, but i am very wary of armchair diagnoses, even from psychiatrists. it’s very difficult to accurately diagnose someone in a clinical setting, so i hardly think one can make an accurate assessment from afar, without actually testing and thoroughly interviewing a mentally ill patient.
i did read his manifesto. the problem with manifestos and trying to commit people based upon them is that if that were the case, i’d say almost half of the population of xanga should be committed! haha. :)
but the media did make a stink about his supposed “mental illness”. http://bit.ly/126Vvri this was largely done to distance themselves from the fact that dorner considered many liberal media outlets his allies and was actually for gun control himself.
@davidian - I saw not one call for changing commitment laws or anything like that.And as I said his issues were the sort where i is likely he never would have been committed. He was not fool enough to be open about his rage until it was too late. Saying her was sick is not what I was talking about
@trunthepaige - I think he was just a criminal. Saying he was mentally ill or deranged just excuses his behavior. He had grievances against the LAPD, sure, but when you take criminal action to “avenge” whatever wrongdoing you felt was done to you, you must face the music.
I’ve worked with many mentally ill clients over the years. Those that get help and use the system are usually fairly healthy and sometime very happy too. Unfortunately, many do not want services. Of that group large numbers tend to have difficult lives. Many go in and out of the system for decades. There is no easy solution. Yet, that is no excuse. There are best practices papers and treatment facilities that are virtually unknown. The system isn’t designed to foster innovation. Health insurance companies are part of the problem. They don’t want to pay for in-patient mental health care. The magistrates/judges/court-appointed masters are part of the problem — they don’t want their decisions to keep people against their will to be reviewed. There are other problems. I just wanted to point out a couple that are making getting effective mental health care way too difficult for the most critically mentally ill that are possibly dangerous people.
@davidian - No I never said I thought he was delusional. But his mental state was not good at all. They are not the same thing
@trunthepaige - what are you refuting? i didn’t say you did. my point is this: i don’t think he was mentally ill. there are a lot of people who do not have “good” mental states, but they don’t go around committing crimes against humanity.
I think all killers are mentally ill at some level.
But I know a bunch of mentally ill people that never killed anyone. It is hard to pick out which ones will kill.
@secretbeerreporter - I was speaking of the accidental injury or death of another in the process of taking one’s own life. Of course, most people in that state of mind are not overly concerned with anyone else.
Can you cite a source or two about Dorner’s mental illness? Or is all this in your imagination and intended to incite the masses against those who may have a real mental illness and have never harmed a fly(like me).
@TheTheologiansCafe - does that include soldiers?
My inside source from inside the LAPD says that he (Dorner) was an Asshat/ douchebag that was extremely self centered. Too bad none of those qualities could get anyone confined in a mental Hospital.
Dorner had a jury of his peers who were not likely to use white privilege to get him in trouble. Dorner was a liar and not completely honest, even though at times he builds a logical Modesto to “prove” his case.
Veterans and mentally disturbed people are very likely to be homeless and avoid the programs that are trying to get the homeless off the street. It is more cost effective to take some of the homeless off the streets and get them in a program (less emergency calls). Los Angeles is trying hard to get the homeless off the streets.
Yeah life can be cruel, I’m not mad, I just have to learn to be brave. I mean sure I would have loved to be put to sleep like a dog. That or have a nice person adopt me.
Most mentally ill people don’t get the treatment they need until they’re deemed a danger to themselves. Problem is, it takes something horrific like that for them to be deemed “dangerous”, and by then it’s usually too late.
@davidian - Legally mentality ill. I have no reason to believe that. But something was going on in his head that was not normal. 4 years of slowly planning on coming as murders as you can. Because you fired is not a normal mine. And he fully planning on his own death. Sure call him mentally sound
@Shadowrunner81 - Sure that is what am doing inciting the masses to get them to keep people from rotting on the streets. Your mentality is not compassionate at all. Set them free let them rot untreated on the streets. Committing the seriously mentally ill, would see a massive decrease in the homeless population. But I guess you call keeping this people from sleeping i a gutter is mean of me. Oh yes and some of these people are dangerous to others as well as themselves.
@PPhilip - What are they dong this Trying hard? Pre 1980 they had commitment laws that worked and homelessness was far less a problem. And while crime was much higher than now. Mass school killings were very rare
@angelwingfive - Believe it or not pre 1980 it was far easier to get someone committed. Out of misplaced compassion and an effort to save money this was changed. It can be changed back
The recent shootings are still a very small part of the violence out there, they just get publicized more. These shooting don’t constitute a reason to ban guns, or spend money on mental health, although both would be a step in the right direction. Personally I don’t think anyone should be allowed to own a gun under strict penalty, but that’s just me and I realize it won’t ever happen.
The gun banning crowd has always been there, they are just seizing the moment. Can you blame them?
As far as the mental health funding you seem to want, check your own political parties voting record on funding for mental health, here I’ll summarize for you .NO.
Also remember that some of us, 20% and growing, consider religious people to be mentally disturbed as well. At least the fundies.
@brown_buffalo - I know that there is no political support for what i am saying. The right wants to save money and left thinks that the mentally ill should be free. Thank you for a nice exchange. And I am so not worried about extreme atheists gaining a great deal of political power. Its never going to happen
@trunthepaige - You’ve already had two atheist presidents, you just didn’t know it.
@brown_buffalo - And I am sure you could prove it by more the innuendo. The fact that they could never have said they were tells you one reason I am not worried about
@trunthepaige - I wouldn’t worry either. It’s pretty obvious that just saying something is makes it so, because people are always saying atheist and atheism like it’s more than a definition. But that’s cool. It only means you won’t see us coming because you’ll be looking for something that does not exist. People who don’t believe in any higher power are everywhere. They are just beginning to realize it’s okay to talk about it, and they are finding that non belief is the least of the things they have in common. And most of them are democrats.
@brown_buffalo - I am so worried really really worried. You need to look at some demographic information. Remembering that of those with “no religion: are rarely atheists or even close to it.
@trunthepaige - As long as they are against religion it’s enough. And most are against religion and just go to church out of a sense of obligation. There is no real faith, just window dressing. They are the people that will wise up one day and certainly their kids will. Atheist groups are sprouting up all over the place in schools. Remember JT, he does that now.
@brown_buffalo - But they are not most of them believe in god over 40% of the pray. They have nothing common with atheists. Atheists being a very small group that worldwide is shrinking. And is only growing by the smallest of margins in the USA
@trunthepaige - Where do you get your info, from the wishful thinking society. Non-belief is the fastest growing demographic in the world. The religious can’t even swing an election anymore, that’s how the numbers have fallen off in America. The only place you find people really into God are in the rural area’s, the cities are mostly non-believers or those who might as well be for what they actually do.
@brown_buffalo - You are so funny. No actually I look at real sources not atheist fan boy sites. No you are not the fastest. Stop being Eurocentric
@brown_buffalo - you only find God-driven people in rural areas? are you serious? have you heard of hillsong? look at their movement. it’s predominantly in metropolitan areas. there are a lot of people in the cities that have a heart for something more.
The fact that he was mentally ill is the very reason why Guns should be banned and not allowed to be used openly and freely. And all the killers of the Aurora, Sandy Hill etc, were found to be mentally ill only after the shootings. In fact Adam Lanza was taught to shoot by his own mother a gun advocate and collector, knowing very well that he was mentally imbalanced.
@angys_coco - what you said is not true at all. Outside of Doner the rest were diagnosed as mentally ill most were on anti depressants. But more importantly nowhere in the world, nowhere in this country has any gun control ever lower the crime rate, including the murder rate after it was passed. They do nothing good and are unconstitutional anyway. You can not stop crime by going after the law abiding
SO hard to call out who is mentally ill anymore since it seems their are nuts on every corner of society.
@trunthepaige - If they were mentally ill, isn’t the very reason why there should be banned! Because guns in the wrong hands can kill people. It has nothing to do with the constitution.
@trunthepaige - http://religions.pewforum.org/reports
If you read the article, Christianity has slipped 10% while no affiliation has risen 8%.
I believe this is only the start of a massive swing in numbers.
Also this survey is adults only, 18+ so you don’t have the teenagers which is overwhelmingly no affiliation.
@brown_buffalo - I’m glad you believe. If you like pew then look at what the unaffiliated believe. They are not atheists.Not even close . I suggest you keep looking at stuff like that. World wide religious projections would interest you.
@trunthepaige - I suggest if you really want to see the way things are you study some of these pages. They are as unbiased as I can find anywhere. They tell the story of declining faith in America. Even if someone claims religion doesn’t mean it means anything to them.
http://www.ipsos-mori.com/Search.aspx?usterms=survey+religion&page=2
@brown_buffalo - What you do not understand is that I have read them already I keep up on this stuff. And what they show is mostly a changing faith. Atheists are holding at 6% about the same percentage as it was in 2004
@trunthepaige - Simply put, atheists as you call them, are a very diverse group who don’t identify AS a group. They all have some background and most of them if asked might just put the family religion. Or they might want an option that’s not there. Atheism isn’t a religion, so I don’t know how they can use a religious survey to get an accurate number. You know as well as I do there are millions of us.
@brown_buffalo - Dude atheism has a meaning and from other polls there are more self identified atheists than real ones. According to Pew 21% of atheist say they believe in God. 6% of them believe in a personal god. Your faith is not growing. and lot of “atheists” are confused
A very high percentage (upper nineties) of mentally ill persons are not prone to violence.