March 20, 2013
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Schools are Overfunded!
On my entry about Prison rape, a comment was made about not being able to do anything about prisoners abusing each other. Because we do not have the money to do that. Our schools and even the prisons need that money. The original guy did not say this ( 2 others did) but, the position amounts to …
“prisoners will just need to keep taking it in the ass, we do not have the money to help them”.
I replied that our schools and prisons are over funded. School funding was not the topic but it is today.
School Spending: And the almost religious belief that we do not spend enough money on them.
The USA spends more money per student than every nation on earth, except the tiny nation of Switzerland. A nation that is very rich and its people have very small families (link)
Our teachers are underpaid
USA K-12 Teachers pay
Median Pay $51,380 per year (link)USA Median Pay all other jobs that require the same education $49,800 (LinkDO I need to mention that teachers work far fewer days than average to make that $51,380 per year? I do not think they are over paid, but they are well paid.The results: The USA’s schools, even though we spend more money than any other nation on earth and spend more per student than every nation outside of Switzerland.Out of 34 countries tested, the U.S. ranked 14th in reading, 17th in science and 25th in math.Are our schools really underfunded?Or is the problem the way we teach and not the lack of money?Do you have any suggestions on how we could improve our education system?About prison spending. We outspend the world, putting more Americans in jail and spending more money doing it than any other nation even comes close to doing. That is really not worth talking about because I doubt that anyone really did not already know that.
Comments (139)
“Or is the problem the way we teach and not the lack of money?”
You hit the problem on the head. The problem is the way we teach and not the lack of funding. Perhaps it can be argued that the way those funds are distributed in the US is unfair, but I haven’t done enough research to know whether or not this is true or not. I’d argue that some school administrators, parents, and faculty work harder to procure funds to certain schools and therefore it would seem as if some schools receive more funding.
Even with the funding, our schools are failing because of the way we teach students. Students are taught to memorize facts instead of critical thinking skills and how to use the facts they have learned. This especially became a problem when the NCLB act started. I think the act had good intentions, but it made the focus of education in the US about passing tests instead of learning.
@Erika_Steele - It may be very unfair. But that is another issue, an issue that should be addressed as we reform our mess of an education system. I hope we get it fixed before 30% of our kids are in private schooling and no longer care about those left behind
@trunthepaige - I think some states are starting to send a message to our so called leaders, by withdrawing from the NCLB act. I am hoping Alabama will join the 10 that already have. I just hope that whatever reforms that happen to help begin to fix the problems stemming from the NCLB act is more than just a band-aid. I think the first thing that should happen is that we need to train teachers how to teach for critical thinking skills and not just memorization for a test, and we also have to retrain those who want to be school administrators to be on the same page as teachers when it comes to education. After the problem of how we educate our educators the problems with the school system are so numerous and varied with the economic, cultural, racial, and regional diversity found in the US that it is really hard to know where to begin. I guess reform needs to start with deciding what the goals of a public education in the US should be and then working from there.
@Erika_Steele - Exactly set priories what is job one. and give job one the most time. When job one is being done well then go to job two. If you do not get to job 10, job 10 was likely a waste of school time. Maybe that priory can be address another way other than using school time. And we do need to let teachers run things far more than they do
Teachers are absolutely overpaid. It’s a part time job with a pretty high full time salary. There is no reason for anybody in such a pseudovocation to be earning more than $7-8/hour yet they constantly complain about how underpaid they are. These dolts couldn’t cut it a day in the real world yet they get paid more than most of the people who work there.
@SKANLYN - If only I had more teachers reading my blog. You would have just set this convo on fire
The teachers have to deal with unruly, disrespectful youth, and are often blamed for both the fact that they discipline the misbehaving students, and that the student is misbehaving at all. If you lay a hand on a student who is punching and kicking and you, even to restrain him, you have a lawsuit on your hands. I’m almost certain without looking it up that countries who have the best educational systems aren’t as strict about their teachers’ disciplinary actions–and the students have much more pressure to behave and listen.
Shanghai and Finland have had a lot of success with their systems. It’s worth looking into what they do.
@trunthepaige - Sadly most teachers can’t read all that well. They tend to be very stupid people. Many of the kids I knew growing up who did poorly in school majored in Sociology (Academia’s gift to the dim-witted) and went on to become teachers.
@QuantumStorm - I like looking at Finland because looking at them you are not looking at as drastic a cultural change. We are never going to study as hard or long as a lot of Asian school kids do. While the Finns actually do less homework than Americans to the best results in the world. They do not work as hard, but they work much smarter than we do. They do not waste as much time
@SKANLYN - Wow I am not touching that … YET
@Jenny_Wren - I do not know for sure but western Europe and Canada are all ahead of us and I doubt they are harsh disciplinarians. That said giving the teachers more control would be a very important move. I honestly do not believe a none teacher should have much say so in the way a school works. Most administration is a waste of money and they get in the way. Looking at the best system in the world (Finland) they do not have administrators. The teacher do everything total control and responsibility. The teacher says something and the student is looking at the top authority in the class. There is no one to force the teacher to accept your bad behavior. But the Finns do not expect their kids to sit quite in a classroom for 8 hrs a day ether. That helps
@trunthepaige - I’m not saying “harsh”–I’m saying, if I student is hitting and kicking you, you can pin his arms to his side. That’s not exactly “harsh”. But, I agree with you.
@Jenny_Wren - There is a lot to change. We do treat our teachers with a lot of disrespect. Others tell them how to teach, how to run their class, and no decision they make is not second guessed. In the negative side I would give the teachers in the same school the right to fire other teachers. Accountable only to themselves and other teachers who work with them. Its their class they are responsible for it in all ways.
A great deal of spending goes to bureaucracy and federally required teacher in-services.
I can’t tell you how many in-services I went to to talk about absolutely worthless “No Child Left Behind” federal requirements.
I nicknamed those meetings our, “Million Dollar Thursdays,” because that’s about how much taxpayer money our little school was throwing down the crapper in wasted time.
And then there are the ever popular teacher in-services that teach us how to brainwash our students into becoming mindless liberals for life.
If the money allocated to our schools actually made it to the classroom we’d see a miracle happen.
But anything that the government gets involved in is impoverished.
@trunthepaige - Well in the Finnish system they’re more individualized in terms of instruction. Teachers have more power to tailor the curriculum to the student’s needs and the general cultural perspective there is that having an educated population is a necessity, not a luxury, so that may have something to do with it too. As for the Shanghai system, that has less to do with the Asian stereotype you mentioned and more to do with the fact that they, like Finland, concentrated more curriculum-changing power at the local level by allowing schools to set their own curricula. They also do something rather interesting where a “strong” school mentors a “weak” school in what they call a commissioned education program. All very interesting things to consider.
I abandoned our public education system. I pay for private school for my kid, which is, on average, cheaper per student than public schools and far more effective.
@QuantumStorm - The part about the Shanghai system was the amount of homework and study. The Finns see homework as a failure to learn what they should have learned in class. Not as part of the basic school day. I see that system as more compatible to American culture
@ImNotUglyIJustNeedLove - The Enumclaw schools spend one half day every week at on of those waste of time meeting. And I have heard that is normal. They want every teacher to mindlessly teach the same way and the same things
@trunthepaige - With the Finnish system, their system is pretty much completely public-funded, even the college level. Do you see that as something we should consider or should we look at redistibuting administrative power first?
Well, we could actually teach kids. I know I wasn’t even taught what communism was. They told us it was an economic system where it was totally fair and everyone got the same thing. They aren’t educating kids at all.
@blonde_apocalypse - I am told it is about half the price. With all the motivated kids being pulled out of the public system, the public system might be doomed
I’m sorry this discussion did not create the drama between teachers and others. I think that change is happening very slowly, and all points to a future of incompetence, laziness, recklessness.
@QuantumStorm - What I wound like to see is a top down overhaul. All details I do not know. I would be willing to consider anything that has a suspenseful track record. NO more trying to reinvent the wheel. Working educational systems are already in place. We need to use one of them
@trunthepaige - It’s possible,and not in the least uncommon, to graduate with a bachelor’s degree from public universities without ever having learned to read even ONE language. College has become the easiest way to live on welfare, a form of welfare more readily available to people who aren’t citizens of the US than those who are. Public education has long since passed doomed.
@Semper_medusa - Wow really? amazing they even tried to teach you government system and economic systems. most school do not even get that far. But nothing is better than the misinformation you got
@blonde_apocalypse - Wow I went to a private university. My sloppy writing standards about killed me. And we really had to read a lot. I cant image being a poor reader and getting a degree
Did you ever see this 20/20 report? LINK
@Jenny_Wren - I totally agree with you. In most public schools teachers have to deal with the problem of hard-heads. I Know someone who taught in High school for over 30 years. Math and science. He told me stories of bad “stupid” kids in his class. He said that he had several students that were noisy, lazy hard-heads that he constantly had to write-up or send out of his class. Then when they fail the class, due to their laziness, they had to repeat the class but unfortunately the same teacher somehow ended up getting these same students the following year…in both the Math and Sciences classes…having to deal with the same crap. After about a second or third time of the students having to repeat his class, even if they had failing grades he would pass them anyways just to get them out of his class instead of having to deal with them another year. I can see that type of crap stress, depressing and demoralizing a teacher after a period of time causing them to lose their love for teaching and can sometimes lead to them not caring and being seen as a bad teacher. There are a lot of parents out there that look at school as a daycare leaving the teachers to deal with their undisciplined kids. It’s a bunch of crap. I’d never be a teacher. I’d end up wanting to beat the breaks off of some little jerk.
@bluepillorredpill - No thank you for the link
did you get your median annual income from just k-12 regular education teachers or k-12 regular and special needs education teachers?
I agree with you about the funding of the schools.
@bluepillorredpill - well said and very, very true. teachers are paid to teach, not to entertain, not to babysit, and not to discipline. my mom works for a daycare and some of the crap she’s seen go on between those four walls is absolutely disgusting.
@trunthepaige - What’s wrong?
@trunthepaige - Obviously, it varies. I attended Texas A&M as an engineering student and it was brutal in the engineering classes, (not so much in the business and education classes. My roommate was majoring in elementary education and I saw her course work). It would have been impossible not being able to read, but I also took a few classes at a different public university and knew students who had to have their exams read to them by a (federally required, state-paid) “translator” because they couldn’t read.
@Love_in_102 - I actually pulled that number out of another bls report that had a slightly higher median. The specialties they show in the complete report could have been misleadingly high. Elementary School Teachers, Except Special Education: This number was higher than I had seen before.$55,270
I did not want to push my point too hard
@bluepillorredpill - No I had not seen it. Thank you for showing it to me
@trunthepaige - ok, thanks for clearing that up.
@trunthepaige - Oh I thought you meant “no thank you” as in you didn’t want to click the link and watch it. lol
Make it easier to fire teachers who don’t perform, and raise the pay of those who do. Reward excellence rather than reward surviving another year.
The Teachers Union is crippling our education system, especially in inner city schools where a quality education is critical.
@Love_in_102 - It was actually a mistake. I meant to link to that report. I will leave it as it is because in comparison my numbers are conservative. And i lost it
@obamawatch - The union is in the way of change no doubt. They are only about work rules and more union employees they onlky want u to spend more result matter not at all to them. in another system the teachers as basically also management making the union obsolete. But the teacher happier
@trunthepaige - you linked it to a report, or are you referring to a different one?
@Love_in_102 - The different one. I do like the one I linked to better but it is harder to read and does not show the average I wrote. I still think $55,270 look a bit high for an median elementary school teacher. But I am not going to argue with them. Not over $2000 a year
I’m not really too sure how to grasp this concept. Schools are overcrowded and some have been deemed for closure in the recent months. Maybe we need to look at administration paychecks and cut some of their salaries. Maybe it’s the bigger issue of us putting so much money into the US education system but very little of it actually making its way into our schools, but you can’t have government run education without the government, so I don’t know what a practical solution would be.
I’ve been in public education for many years and I’ve seen it steadily get worse as bureaucrats imposed new guidelines. It definitely needs to be revamped.
@Love_in_102 - The way we are doing it fails. Other nation are doing it well at much lower costs. There are right ways to do it, and they are in plan site. Money is not the issue, other than way more people are making money off the school system than just teachers. We need a full change, not a few more dollars per child. If we change the way we do it with the money we are now spending. our school system should be gold plated. One of the very best in the world
The money is already there. We need to stop throwing it away. I am not calling for us to cut it. We are rich enough to send what we are spending. We just need to get what we are paying for
After hearing my entire life how underpaid teachers were, I was shocked when I found out what the average teacher was paid. And then I wanted to be a teacher for all that money and summers off. But then I realized that I kinda hate most kids and would probably be arrested for smacking one of the insufferable little shits.
Looking back on my K-12 education, my teachers were mostly glorified babysitters. They tell you to write a paper without ever teaching you how to write a paper or demand you do a science project without ever bothering to teach the scientific method. I didn’t learn the scientific method until Biology 101 in college. I didn’t even learn what communism was till I looked it up myself. It’s really no wonder there are so many shitty students in America.
The education problem is always money first because its always been politics.
@MomWithoutaMinivan - one of the few ways a teacher can get fired is to try and teach a better way.Its a thankless job right now. Just coast, do whatever moronic thing your higher ups tell you to do. And you draw your pay and the pay is not bad. No wonder so many teachers seem uncaring. The system does not reward caring to much
@Hunt4Truth - amen. Its not about the kids.
i don’t think that anyone was saying that underfunding is the main problem of public education. it’s not an either-or situation. we were just pointing out that, on the whole, schools do not receive the amount of money they probably should to cover things like repairs, expansion, technological upgrades, etc. and yes, that can directly affect a student’s education. case in point: my high school was one of the few in my city that did not offer AP classes. that was due to lack of funding, not lack of demand.
@trunthepaige - ok, so, what are they doing that we’re not? I guess that’s what it all boils down to.
@flapper_femme_fatale - well said.
Statistically speaking, school districts that receive the most money per capita, perform most poorly. Why that is a mystery.
@flapper_femme_fatale - I do a lot of work on schools and the biggest problem I see is in where the monies are allocated. There is significant waste in the design, engineering and construction of many schools and also in their maintenance. Elaborate facades, nonutilitarian ornimentation, inefficient designs and layouts, not enough foresight into the future, just a few excessive expenses, the tip of the proverbial iceberg if you will.
Shut down public schools, give checks to families. Families get to choose which (private) school to send their kids to. Schools will have to COMPETE. Instead of answering to school board bureaucrat cronies, they will be answering to those whom they serve.
I am going to be bold and say that report is fully of holes.
Schools at least in Oregon are very under funded.
Programs are being closed down that should be kept and some they keep are programs that should not be like homosexual education.
I have gone to school over this and gotten middle school children removed from these programs.
In a school near where I live they dropped the art class in High School no money for it, and another school near by no Wood Shop, no money.
So this report is full of holes because I have seen it first handed that English is not taught well, kids are pushed ahead because they have no funds to keep them behind, And just like I have mentioned.
We have children that can’t read or write well, because no funds to teach well, and you say they are over funded. What a fair out story. Bro. Doc
@flapper_femme_fatale - NO I was being insulted for saying that the money spent on schools was more than enough. There are no justifiable reasons for this. We do spend more than all others. What I said was not only not ignorant, stupid, all the other things I was called. But I was right our schools are well funded.More than enough money is there. I am not expecting those who were ignorant on this subject to admit to it and apologize just because they should. But those who read this entry and its links know they were wrong now. and that is good enogh for me
@Love_in_102 - You followed the discussion here, there a lot of way to revamp our school systems. Pick one lets do it. But more money is not needed our schools are well funded. Over funded for the results they are giving us
@BroDoc - NO they are not Portland schools are spending $12,000 bucks a kid a year. You need to ask what they are doing with it
here is a fact check artical that gives better detail than I just did
http://www.politifact.com/oregon/statements/2012/jul/03/don-mcintire/does-portland-public-schools-spend-12000-year-stud/
@DrummingMediocrity - That is one idea. More money at the same system is not going to work
@Jenny_Wren - This is EXACTLY right. I worked as a direct care worker for children with “behavioral difficulties/disabilities” lol what? (read: medicaid-funded bullshit services to avoid discipline and thereby any ensuing lawsuits). I feel so bad for all those teachers. I do not think they are overpaid. I think they are forced into martyrdom. Most teachers I’ve worked with are extremely hardworking, good people. They spend so much of their own money and time to help their students succeed, and then one little asshole goes and ruins entire days AND THERE’S NOTHING THEY CAN DO ABOUT IT. During my last week in that position, my 5-year old client who couldn’t have weighed more than 35 pounds gave his teacher a concussion, threw objects in my face, and cursed me out more than I’ve ever been cursed out before. His classroom had to be evacuated, evacuated. That means his horrified peers were forced to stop their education, leave the classroom, and wait. His teacher was crying. Why does everyone else but the undisciplined children have to suffer? It’s because our society is made up of moral cowards.
@Aloysius_son - Its not our schools are well funded. more money means their is a problem
@trunthepaige – ok, uncle. US schools are not underfunded, but the funds are certainly not being used properly. is that what you want to hear? is that what earns you the gold star for the day?
@Love_in_102 - NO it makes what was said about me rather ignorant. And as someone you know said I need to look things up when I was the only one who did know what I was talking about. Yeah there is a bit of satiation in me knowing that you know that is the case. You want to call that a gold star ok.
You will find when it come to facts that I have had the time to write about. I never do that ignorantly. I always can source it. It is always a well thought out opinion you can argue the opinion but not the facts. Saying this is not me being arrogant. Its just me telling you the truth.
If you do not hold grudges ether do I. this is just a blog.
No one deserves to be paid $7-8 an hour. That is subsistence pay. I do agree with @ Erika Steele that it is the WAY we teach that is largely behind the aura of incompetence that pervades our system.
Hands-on and Socratic learning work far better- teach people to THINK and to EXPERIENCE our world.As for the training of teachers, I haven’t met anyone who entered teaching by majoring in Sociology. I majored in Psych at the Baccalaureate level and had a double minor: Education and History. My Master’s was not in Sociology, either. When I worked full time as a teacher and counselor, I put in 10 hour days, and was in the classroom or office, 10-11 months of the year. I am proud of the vast majority of my work.People who continually spout off, just to create drama, are a waste of my time. BTW, Paige, I’m not referring to you. This discussion needs to happen, so teachers are kept honest and hone their actual skills.
I haven’t read the other comments, so maybe someone has already mentioned this, but private schools do a much better job with thousands less per student. I think that is because they are subject to competition. If we started a voucher system here, where parents could choose which school their tax dollars went to to educate their children, then the schools would have to do better or not get paid. I like the voucher idea.
@trunthepaige - you know, now that I go through and read everything a second time, you really haven’t provided any evidence that schools are over-funded. so I’m calling you out on your bullshit. giving us links to how much teachers make a year doesn’t support that statement, it just tells us how much money they’re making. over-funding would refer to the idea that more money is being put into something than what is needed to create sustainability for that thing. it implies there is a surplus and there are more funds coming in rather than going out in the school system. show me how much the US educational system costs to run every year and how much funding is then used to support the system. if those numbers prove there is more funding going into the system than is being used to support it, maybe then I’ll give you a gold star. now if you’re talking in terms of the value of education kids in the school system are receiving, something like that can’t really be measured in a monetary value, and that was not your original argument. thus, if you change your argument or the wording now, then all of your credibility goes right out the window. on another note, you’re right. this is just a blog, so thanks for not holding any grudges, dear.
First,on prison overspending,they have it better there in prison than many outside of prison.Prison is punishment,not pandering and letting them sit around and watch TV,play basketball,lift weights or whatever.The old “making licence plates” should be done.And NO,they should not be paid for doing work in prison.Learn how to be responsible?Yes!They should not be paid to learn howto be responsible.
Overspending in schools!Too many people telling people what to do,telling other people what to do and nobody actually doing anything.And they get paid for it.The money is spent to teach liberal ideas and crap that do nothing but create a dependent class of folks.It’s a joke.
“The Underground History of American Education ” available online
For what they produce, they are indeed overfunded.
Teaching so many subjects is pointless. We’re not ever going to learn all of those subjects. It would be more efficient for us to specialize in something a little earlier, like HS. It might also be better to separate us based on ability then too.
@QuantumStorm - yeah, doing it based on a person’s financial standing is inefficient for us as a society.
@blonde_apocalypse - I sat next to a guy in college who said he could barely read and was getting an English degree. I was actually impressed.
http://johntaylorgatto.com/chapters/index.htm
I was really amazed how much this book coincided with Sinclair’s “The Goosestep”
@Love_in_102 -
” over-funding would refer to the idea that more money is being put into something than what is needed to create sustainability for that thing.”
Look at all the countries on her graph, that spend less than us. Many of them put our education system to shame, when it comes to academic standards, results, etc.
They do better, with less. I bet you could say then that we’re putting more money into something than what is needed…
@DougX831 - their cost of sustainability is different than ours, there’re variables. besides, she never claimed the US education system was over-funded compared to other countries. she threw that in later. if that’s what she wanted to argue then she should have been more explicit.
No, when the money gets there, they make it do something other than educate the children. Did you know that each state has its own political org that determines state objectives and that each local district has the same org of their own revamping it all — plus the design is all over the place to satisfy this one and that one and the other one. You may remember, I work with inner city adults in vocational training — by the time we get them, its absolutely a miracle if they can read and write and do math at a 5th grade level. Its soooo discouraging. They describe a nightmare when asked about the primary and secondary schools that they attended. So do the teachers that I’ve ever met.
@Love_in_102 - Can you be more explicit about how their costs of sustainability are different than ours? Let’s start with a comparison between Japan (notably one of the best performing education systems in the world) and the U.S.
What are their differences, cost-wise? How are they able to spend less on their needs, since they’re an island nation and have to import many of their supplies such as paper while the U.S. has their own paper mills throughout the country. It seems to me that their costs would be higher, yet they still spend less (the graph being calculated per student, not a gross amount)
And her throwing the other countries in later, or not, is not really relevant. The argument can be made both from a “compared to other nations” standpoint, and a domestic-only standpoint as well. That’s not really a rebuttal to my original comment. You said “over-funding would refer to the idea that more money is being put into something than what is needed to create sustainability for that thing.”
I’m positing that there’s plain evidence of that.
@DougX831 - I don’t want to compare other countries to the US. that’s not what our (and I mean hers and mine, not yours and mine) argument is about.
@mtngirlsouth - Private schools have varying degrees of success just like public schools do. Some are absolutely rot while others are amazing.
@Love_in_102 -
Ok, but you’ve asked for evidence that more money is being thrown into the system than is needed, and the fact that other countries (whose costs are higher in many regards, as shown) can achieve more, while spending less per student is that evidence. You made a claim, and then abandoned it, so I’ll assume you have no actual basis for that comment other than statement by fiat, and we can discard it as an actual rebuttal. Agreed?
Let’s go to another point you made then, as this is a conversation I’m interested in engaging myself in, and it’s a public forum…
You say
“show me how much the US educational system costs to run every year and how much funding is then used to support the system. if those numbers prove there is more funding going into the system than is being used to support it, maybe then I’ll give you a gold star.”
That gold star comment again… Seriously? This is a blog about a topic that the OP wants to discuss, and has facts and figures to support her claim. If you want to engage in the discussion, that’s fine, but to trivialize her arguments as seeking a “gold star” is immature, at best. The whole point of blogging is to discuss things, and it’s infantile logic to say that someone’s seeking a pat on the back just because they happen to know their position, research their position, and don’t back down in the face of less-than-factual dissents. But I digress… as to your point, that over-funding can only be proven to you if the income exceeds the expenses: that’s nonsense. It presumes that the costs are all justified. They aren’t. If you were to calculate the justified costs, versus the income of funds and the income of funds exceeded the costs, then there might be a problem. But a simple x + y analysis doesn’t work.
Take the school lunch system, for instance. It’s a fact that children (whether deserving or not, based on their financial situation) receive free or reduced cost lunches. That’s a cost. Now, without getting into a drawn out discussion of who should, and should not, be eligible for this program, it’s not arguable that there are children who are receiving free and reduced cost lunches that do not truly need that assistance. It is a cost that the educational system must bear, and to whatever extent- it’s an unjustified cost. So for your analysis to be accurate, you’d also have to calculate the reduced costs, taking out the unjustified costs, and then compare it to the amount of money put into the system.
You have to do this for every school, in every city, in every county, in every state in the nation.
You also have to justify the costs for textbooks. Is each shool board buying the best books at the best costs, or are there superintendents with cousins in the text book industry who are making deals with each other?
How about this… you seem to be making the case that the educational system isn’t over funded. You seem to be arguing that pretty strongly (unless you just want to argue against anything Paige says), so can you provide any supports for your side?
Chairs. Maybe the school board president has a friend at the chair company, and we’re losing a dollar a chair because we could buy them from the other company down the road, but that company doesn’t have any connections with the school board.
et al
@Erika_Steele - Absolutely. The system has been arranged so that test scores = money, so that is what districts focus on. “Public” education is more like a business than most people realize.
@SKANLYN - ”A part time job?” Do you have any idea how many hours teachers put in after school? And that’s just the ones trying to get a paycheck, it goes nowhere *near* the ones who care and go to student’s sporting events, call parents to get troubled kids on track, exc. “A day in the real world?” Getting punched in the face breaking up a fight when you came in that morning to teach low-income kids how to do long division–is that “real” enough for you?
@trunthepaige - Overhaul? Absolutely. First, I’d like to see a setup where all kids graduate with at least one practical skill–think of it as a sort of double major in Practicality and Knowledge. Things like carpentry, basic engineering, agribusiness, exc. Unless a student specializes in biology knowing about the Krebs cycle and the function of the endoplasmic recticulum is not going to help them. Knowing how to make plants and crops grow, on the other hand, is a skill with application. Second, teachers need the ability to boot kids who do nothing but disrupt the class. Put them somewhere that sucks until they are ready to be good. And last but not least, parents and teachers and administrators need to stop playing a blame game and set up regular communication: we all have the same goal of success and a happy life for these kids, and we shouldn’t treat each other as enemies.
Where does the money go, though? It seems like schools are always needing fundraisers.
I have nothing to add. I am just here reading.
HAHAHAHAH. “teachers work less to earn that money”
Do you even KNOW how much work teachers put in? School is in session 7 hours a day (which is pretty close to full time, mind you), but most are there AT LEAST an hour early, stay 1-2 hours late, and then go home to work on school work such as grading, lesson plans, etc. Teachers are always working. At least the ones that care about their students and their jobs, are ALWAYS working. I suggest you watch the documentary American Teacher. People don’t appreciate teachers because they don’t know what they go through. Teaching is one of the hardest jobs. Really sucks to see you write this entry.
by the way, most teachers don’t make that much. If I were to get a job in Ohio, I’d probably be making less than $30,000. they only make that much once they’ve been doing it for a really long time, and I think that’s fair.
Yes they are overpaid, and they also get free medical. You know what, they also get a lot of paid sick days, and a lot of them will habitually take 3 and 4 day weekends. So many lazy people are there, and then they complain about their jobs, and I’m thinking, if you hate it so much then leave it and let someone who is willing to work have your job.
@autumn_cannibal76 - It is a part time job.
If you can’t get your paper and test correcting done during your free periods then you obviously have poor time management skills. In the real world you have to log 12-14 hours a day at the office, often including weekends, and you have a Blackberry going off all hours of the night including while you’re on vacation. Your income, in large part, consists of a bonus that you don’t get if you fail to meet certain goals which many times are out of your control. There’s no teachers union and there damn sure ain’t no “tenure” to ensure you keep your job and continue to get paid out the ass even when you do a shitty job. Sorry but your six hour/day profession with two months off a year and a vacation every eight weeks is a part time job in a fantasy world where accountability and consequences don’t exist. You should be the one paying us for essentially getting to go to Disneyland everyday.
Actually it’s more apt to say that many of our schools are overfunded. Schools are funded by property tax, which means schools in rich neighborhoods have plenty of resources and well paid teachers and schools in poor neighborhoods are overcrowded and kids have to share books, desks etc. Level the playing field then you’ll see average test results go up.
Recent attempts to do this (sort of) have been coupled with requirements that in order to get federal funding teachers have to jump through all kinds of hoops, teach toward the test etc, which is generally not well received among education experts. So they are essentially helping and hurting poor school districts at the same time.
@SKANLYN – In the real world? Funny, I know a lot of people here and have yet to meet anybody working a job like the one you just mentioned. Please tell me, how do you teach your students while grading assignments at the same time?
@SKANLYN - if your job requires you to work 12-14 hours a week plus weekends, you all ought to have a union of your own instead of criticizing teachers for having one. If you think it is somehow “good” for people to work 60+ hours a week and never have time for having a family or raising children to be good people–congratulations, you are what’s wrong with America. I am not going to argue with you about what teaching is like, since you have obviously never worked that job and, therefore, have no idea what you are talking about.
LOL at the people calling teaching an overpaid part-time job. When you’re responsible for multiple groups of 20-30 kids, sitting up until late at night grading papers and making lesson plans, trying to keep the peace within the inevitable group of unruly children and making the appropriate disciplinary measures when needed, keeping track of every child on a field trip, and STILL ATTEMPTING TO TEACH THEM, it’s hardly worth the money they’re being paid at all. I imagine the summers off are so the teachers don’t go batshit insane.
I think part of the issue of the analysis of U.S. vs The World on education is the fact that, sovereignty speaking, The United States is not one country, but 50. Each individual state should compare themselves to Japan, Switzerland, Uganda, whatever.
But, I suppose, I would say that, since I live in Minnesota.
@JustPlainMorgie - Yes I do, but most people making over $50,000 per year work more than 40hr weeks. the typical worker works 240 days assuming no overtime to make their yearly salary. Teacher’s work between 180-190 days.
Almost everyone works hard, teacher are far from underpaid and yes the good ones work very hard when they are working. But so does everyone else.
and yes most teachers do make that much. Hit the link.
@McScarry - Some of the states would look a lot better than the USA as a whole. Minnesota is one of them.
@chronic_masticator - We all earn what we are paid, working hard to make what a teacher makes is not unusual at all. No they do not work as hard as you are saying but it is hard work at times. If they find the job that bad (going bat shit crazy). It means they are not suited to the job. Not everyone is suited to every job. And teacher is not a job you should take if you do not like teaching kids
@autumn_cannibal76 - So working hard for your pay is “what’s wrong with America”? Wow! Thanks for opening my eyes. I never considered that lack of laziness was the root of all our problems in this country.
@trunthepaige - Funny you should say that to me, considering that I’ve worked in the school system and keep in contact with my old teachers. Most of them hold part time jobs in the evenings just so they can make ends meet. I’ve worked with a few of them at some of my previous jobs. The principal at my son’s school is the late night manager at a local hotel. My German teacher works at a drug store in the evenings and teaches summer school at the community college, and her husband who was my history teacher and her German substitute when she was ill works at a department store. I worked with him there for several years. I’ll agree that not all teachers work hard, but mine most certainly did and still do, and they’re all at the age where they should be living in comfortable retirement, not slaving away trying to survive on what meager pay they’re given.
@agnophilo - court rulings have made states level the funding field a great deal. You would never want it truly level because a small farm town costs far less to live in than a large city. A teacher making $60,000 a year in Wenatchee Wa is very close to rich. That same $60,000 a year in Seattle Washington is not much at all. Its not a few bad school that is lowering our test scores, its our average middle class school that is doing it. Maybe due to our diverse demographics we can never be number one. But we are not in the top 15.
Peronly It would be nice if we treat the USAs education experts they way we would treat any other expert that has done such a poor job. Fire them and get some advisers from Finland
@chronic_masticator - what school and I need an address? Often I can look up exactly what they are being paid (its pulic record). A principal normally makes over a $100,000 a year. I have found almost all claims that a teacher is not making much money turned out to be a lie. hit that link and see what sort of money is being called not enough. Very few jobs pay better
@trunthepaige - I am absolutely not giving you addresses so you can look up people I’m close to.
@chronic_masticator - The school, not them personally. The state then and what sort of school. I can give you the state numbers.
@chronic_masticator - IN Washington state you can look them up personally. But all you see is their pay rate. It really did shut up the I am an underpaid teacher bull shit when people saw you can look it up
@trunthepaige - KY, and I guess public school? Or do you need something more specific, like elementary, middle, or high school?
@chronic_masticator - I do not want to keep pushing on you. I do believe that teachers earn their money. I do not think they are over paid. But I know they are not underpaid. You know teachers who take second jobs. I know full time firefighters who do the same thing. Its not because they do not make enough money, they are very well paid. I know my husband is one of them. Its just means they are very ambitious and want to make more money. Or they really need more money due to extra expenses such as someones medical bills
@trunthepaige - I can promise you my German teachers take on more work because they don’t make enough money. Both of them have severe medical issues that really put a strain on their finances.
@chronic_masticator - I would have guessed something came up. Bad things can happen to all of us. And sometimes a teacher will take on far too much in student loans. That has become a trap, a scam really that preys on those too young to think through what sort of dept they are taking on. And the the people telling them to take out the loans are being paid by the money the students give to the school by way of those loans. No one wants to warm them about the long term pain those loans can be. $50000 a year is good money. But not as good when you own $500 a month because you deferred the loans a few years to get started
@chronic_masticator - I will assume its a high school But I am sure KY pays less than almost anywhere else … I was wrong your state does well.
@chronic_masticator - Average teacher pay where you live is $48,000 per years. And you have very small class sizes bout 16 to 1 I do not know what district and that makes a big difference with principles but they make between $85,000 and $100,000 a year in your state.
lol.
but really. watch American Teacher.
@JustPlainMorgie - From the people I know who are teachers the hardest part is being powerless. They are micro managed by people above them. And those above them are so out of touch with actual teaching. The kids know it all bull shit and many (if not all) have lost respect for schools they are in. The worlds best teacher still ends up with a new room full of kids who have lost all love for learning every year.
I would suck as a teacher. Maybe not suck, I really do like younger people and love teaching someone what I enjoy learning myself. But our schools really are not about teaching. I could do the job in a private school. In a public school I would quit or end up being fired before I was out of my probationary period. It is a hard job, but it is not the teaching part that is so hard
I need to see that documentary
My suggestion: homeschool your kids. That is what we plan to do.
I will agree with some of that. I love teaching and it comes naturally to me. but there is a LOT of stuff people don’t even know teachers do. A lot of people don’t know how much extra work teachers put in or don’t realize they spend half their life outside of school working on things for school. I’m not even a teacher yet but I’ve seen things I never knew were so stressful to a teacher’s job until I went into field. A lot of the things you listed are true and there’s a million and one other things they do that are A LOT of work and a lot of stress and yet they still do it. the best teachers end up getting burnt out because they put their whole entire self into it every single year, and they can’t do that for 30 years in a row. teaching has a very high burn out rate and it’s one of the professions that people don’t stay in, because it is so much work outside of what people think.
idk if you have netflix, but it’s on instant watch.
@JustPlainMorgie - I read the site for that documentary. They have some good ideas but are flat out lying about teachers pay. Wow comparing starting teachers to starting lawyer at prestigious law firms. The be accurate with that one, they would need to be comparing lawyer at prestigious law firms to professors at Harvard
I’m done
I agree that schools are overfunded, and the problem is mismanagement of money. It seems to me that school propositions for more money usually pass, but they will never quit asking for more money to mismanage. I don’t believe that teachers are overpaid.
@JustPlainMorgie - I have it and will watch it tonight. I am very supportive of teachers. If you look at the Finnish model of schools. I see that as the best model for us to learn from. IN that model schools are 100% run by teachers, no one is above them. They get the best education themselves, their pay is good and they are mentored by other teachers at the schools they will be working at.
And the teachers are not half as over worked in Finland as they are in the USA. A burned out teacher can not be a good teacher. The job has the respect it deserves. teachers are truly professional. That is the best way. No classroom teacher should ever have an damn none teaching administrator telling them how to teach kids. Administrators are for keeping the toilet paper stocked in the bathrooms and the building maintain. They should only answer to other teachers who work with them
@merfolklore - I do not believe they are over paid. But as of today they are well paid. Lets keep it that way and change the mess they work in. Its not another $2000 a year that keeps them from doing a good job. Its the system they work in that does that
@trunthepaige - Yes, I agree that it is the system that is the problem, and more money has not and will not improve things.
@SKANLYN - There’s no lack of laziness, that’s for sure. But a bigger problem is that so many people work all the time, never seeing their children, family, or friends. Working hard is great. But arrogantly stating, as you do, that “I work 12-14 hours every day so I’m a better person than someone who teaches school” is bullshit. It’s not how much a person works, its what they get done, and the life that their work helps them to build.
Everyone does know that teachers don’t get paid for their summer vacation right? They make around 30,000 a year and they can choose to have that given to them in 9 months or spread out over 12 months. Most choose 12 months. They’re in school for much longer then 180 days. Try 280. They get just under 3 months off. That’s 80 days. 360-80… I don’t know exactly where you’re getting that they only work 180 days.
I do think tenure is a bunch of shit though. I know a ton of teachers who are shit teachers who have “tenure”. Screw tenure.
@trunthepaige - The student-teacher ratio in my area is about 30:1
@FallenSafely - The links on my entry show what they really make in a year my numbers are right. And yes that is for the 180 to 190 days they do work. And no it is only 190 days tops they have union contracts that make that a max unless they are paid more for such thing as summer school, coaching, etc. I did not pull this stuff out of my ass. You should look it up for yourself. I can see where you are messing up your math. I think you will see it as well if you look. You just made a simple mistake
@chronic_masticator - Really the state and the local unions say its 16 to1 in most of the state some lower none worse that 17 to 1. But I believe you, I have see that before. A lot of teaching personal do not actually have classes. they count as teachers in the ratios but they do not teach a class. Its part of the problem with us spending so damn much money it not getting to where it is suppose to be
@trunthepaige - My boy’s class had 24 kids. The classes I subbed in often had between 25-30. I was never in a room that had fewer than 20 kids, and that was only with some absentees.
@autumn_cannibal76 - Well then what is it you claim to “get done”? I reckon nothing. If you were capable of actually doing you wouldn’t be teaching. As they say, there are those who can and those who teach. In the real world we do work 12-14 hours a day because it takes ambition to create something of value that will get us the kind of recognition that will hopefully lead us to be compensated on the same level as a teacher. Fortunately you have a union and a poor worth ethic that allows you to collect hefty paycheck with an absolute minimal level of initiative or effort. You wouldn’t last an hour in the corporate world.
@chronic_masticator - I believe it. Looking into this subject I have never before seen so many fake stats. That is why I am stubbornly sticking with the us department of labor statistics. The teachers to children ratio is the easiest one to lie about. No one asks classroom size they only ask how many teachers to students.
@SKANLYN - I see you are doing your very best to “win friends and influence people”
@trunthepaige - I’m just saying what needs to be said. It’s obvious that cannibal boy is out of touch with reality when he says people working 60 hour weeks is what’s wrong with America.
@SKANLYN - What is wrong with America right now is that far to few can even get a 40hr week if they want it
@trunthepaige - Living under threat of unemployment when the economy takes a nose dive or quarterly earnings don’t meet expectations or when an initiative doesn’t work out – realities about which teachers never need to worry.
@SKANLYN - true
@SKANLYN - What do you have against teachers so bad? What a massive chip you have on your shoulder! At this point I just feel sorry for you…
My **compensation**, so you know, is less than 30,000 dollars a year. Most teachers will tell you something similar.
People should not have to work 60 hours a week to get by. If you do, because you love what you do and are ambitious–then great, more power to you. I am happy for you, really and truly I am. But I have worked 60 hour weeks before, both in construction and hauling freight, and in my experience I went to work before sunrise and got home after sunset. I had no time for friends and family, my relationships and health suffered, and the overtime pay simply wasn’t worth it.
So, like I said, if you have a fulfilling job and your ambition is rewarded–maybe those long hours sound great, and I’m glad you like your work. But there are a lot of us who give everything we have just to get by, and you have no business looking down on us. We know there are problems with the system–we know its wasteful, overfunded, and corrupt–but believe me when I say that a lot of us are in the shit up to our necks trying to make it better.
@autumn_cannibal76 - I note that you described how you used to give everything you had but then you decided that hanging out at the bar with your friends was more important so you chose to get into the leisurely profession of teaching so you would have more time to do that. You then go on to say you are currently giving everything you have just to get by. I wonder if you note these kinds of inconsistencies when grading your students papers. Probably not. That would require you read them carefully enough to notice which would take time and effort you’re not willing to give.
@SKANLYN - Yes, my friends are more important than my work. My family is more important than my work too. And I am proud of that.
“It does not matter how many books we buy, rather the amount of people who are willing to learn”. schools don’t suck because they don’t have money, they suck because teachers suck, or students suck and sometimes its a combination of the two.
My school this year has a massive amount of funding for many different things. My school actually just got a remodel (highly needed for some time now), and on top of that remodel the pay for the average employee working there has raised a little bit because there was money left over from the remodel. people at my school are doing just fine, as long as the kids are willing to do work.
If people complain that their children did not receive a good education from a school system because they think that funds has anything to do with it, they are wrong. if a student wants a good education, they can find one. look at the students, then look at the teachers. if that all checks out, look at the environment.
@DrummingMediocrity – I knew 2 parents who couldn’t read two words between them and couldnt count change for the coke machine who, when they divorced, took a deal from the judge where the state would pay his child support for him if she would “home school” all 4 of their illiterate children. I don’t know how a man that idiotic got to be a judge but I do know public school would have been better for their children, as bad as it is. Giving money to the welfare crowd is always a bad idea.
We do spend more on education than any other country in the world and yet our system is lacking because we don’t use that money properly. And in most cases, don’t actually teach children how to think critically for themselves or teach them what they need to know.
My parents homeschooled me for ten years because they wanted to tailor my education and give me that one-on-one experience that you just can’t get in a public school. They received many nasty letters from the local public school because they were losing federal funding for me not being there. That is why my parents became members of the HSLDA so that they could be certain they were doing everything correct legally no matter what the school threatened them with.
The last two years of high school I decided to try the public school because I thought it might be useful having that experience under my belt before college. The AP courses I took were mainly good. Most of those teachers were pretty great and rather brilliant. But some of the classes I had to take were horrible. One teacher was mentally unstable and should not have been teaching but she couldn’t be fired because of tenure. Everyone got A’s in her class, even if they didn’t show up or were consistently tardy. My one AP teacher was mostly good but whenever the history lessons brushed on Christianity, he went off on a crazy tangent that wasn’t relevant to the lessons and he would ridicule Christians in our class. He was also into grade shaming in front of other students. Heaven forbid you got anything less than an A on a test! I could go on but I will leave it at that for now. These kinds of things do nothing to teach or help students improve. That is why I am homeschooling my own children. If I had to work, we’d be paying for them to go to a private school. I have no interest in public schools.
@firetyger - I think that is the wises move for a lot of good reasons
Paige, I don’t understand how your logic of “it costs x amount of dollars to put a child through school” equates to how well funded that school system is. You are saying cost of education=funding, which isn’t a logical progression.
And $51,000 is hardly an awesome income.
I know something is majorly wrong with the USA educational system, but I do no know what it is.
My hunch is that content, social values, and religious restrictions are a factor. I also think the discipline is not enforced in too many cases.
I cannot prove any of this, but that is how I see it.
Schools are also a reflection of our national society–most people thing the country is headed in the wrong direction. Huge national mistakes were made like the recent wars. Corruption in our finance community almost brought our county to bankruptcy.
There is lots wrong in our country and schools may just be an important symptom. When the heavy breathing is finally over, I think many will realize taking this country from a religious nation to a secular one was a mistake.
My opinion.
frank
@blonde_apocalypse - I do not mean to imply that school should not be mandatory. If the parents used a penny of the money allocated for their children’s education in another manner, they should be held criminally responsible. A free society is impossible without educated people. That partially explains the deterioration of our own. Also that judge should be impeached. They have too much immunity. I’ve seen judges fall asleep during trials.
I do think people should start their own schools, do their own hiring and firing, rather than putting it in the governments hands. I think children would get a better education with the parents taking active responsibility for its provision. Whatever would happen to those children though, who have irresponsible parents and no interest in whether or not their children go to school, and unwilling to do their part?
In countries where parents have to pay for their children to go to school, they seem to want to make it a top priority.