May 17, 2013
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Just Things:
Yes I can prove that woman are not paid less for the same work as men. But for some reason that will change the mind of no one, who thinks that women are discriminated against in the work force.
Its a fact that boys do far worse in school these days than girls. But that does not stop those who are still trying to make schools a better place for girls.
Its a fact that boys who get the same test scores as girls, still get lower grades in school than girls. But that does not stop those who are trying to make schools a less male centric environment.
Its a fact that girls outnumber boys in extracurricular activities. But that fact will not slow down those who think it is unfair that a few extracurricular activities are male dominated.
Its a fact the girls overwhelmingly receive more scholarships than boys. But that fact will not stop those who believe that men’s athletics give men an unfair advantage in college.
Its a fact that some people just want to be seen as victims, even if they are really privileged.
Living in the USA if you are trying to say that woman are seriously discriminated against so far as eqaul pay for the same work. You are so full of bull shit.
Do men have a better case than woman when the topic is sex discrimination?
If you guys are going to address pay inequality you should read this first. http://www.aauw.org/research/graduating-to-a-pay-gap/
If you control for things like college majors and occupations, the pay gap, or the discrepancy between men’s and women’s earnings that can be attributed to bias and discrimination, shrinks down to about one-third of its size. This is what the American Association of University Women determined when it surveyed male and female college graduates one year after graduation and found that, absent all explanatory variables, even including a graduate’s GPA and how selective their school was and how long they were unemployed after graduation, the women made 93% of what the men were making. In other words, 93 cents to the man’s dollar. Not 77 cents. Not 81 cents. Ninety-three cents.
Comments (106)
I do not know what the facts ard from personal study—I am too lazy for that. All I know is that the gals who worked in my offices were paid equally to the guys. I promoted from within and gave $10,00o a year clerk/typists entry level positions in professional claims handling starting at around $20,0000. They loved me for 6 months. lol
I was only sexually propositioned once in my entire career. I suspect that gals get that much more. Not sure going by Xanga–seems like many gals here are ‘sexually’ free. That is their choice.
Interesting post.
I think so. We were just telling our son the other day how life is just going to be harder on him than his sisters because he was born a white male, and that’s just the way it is. And it is that way in so many areas of society now. I have noticed even in popular music songs, the attitude is that women can do no wrong no matter what they actually do, and everything bad is the man’s fault. We have a generation of self centered spoiled women coming up now who think this way of themselves – that they can do no wrong and any and all bad things are to be blamed on men. It is horrible!
@HUMOR_ME_NOW - being hit on is another story. I would say woman are given far less respect than men when the subject is interpersonal and sexual
@mtngirlsouth - From the research I have seen I can only say I hope your son has ether been taught at home or privately. Its ugly what we are doing to them young. http://www.terry.uga.edu/~cornwl/research/cmvp.genderdiffs.pdf
He goes to public school. As do all my kids. But I do my best to make sure that I counteract any damage.
I feel sorry for them, not enough pink in their lives.
A woman at my work went up and down on this issue. First of all she has no education. I have a graduate degree but that was not a major factor but I think it is worth noting. But she is paid on commission. So she can only complain about her performance. She could easily learn to market on the Internet but she will not do it. She is a great sales person but her reach is limited without the Internet. But the reality is my numbers dwarf her numbers and so they have me on a structure where I get paid off the whole so they can give my customers to other people. The company I work for does not care if you are a man or woman or if you are white or black. They only care about money. So listen up kids. Find a way to make them money and they will pay you.
Link. The difference between this and your blog is they cite sources.
@mtngirlsouth - Yeah, minorities have it so easy.
@TheTheologiansCafe - Yes, racism doesn’t exist anywhere, only capitalism.
Another leftist hoax shot to smithereens.
Imagine that!
@agnophilo - Since you only lend credence to sources that support your personal opinions, citing sources that don’t is a waste of time.
I’ve seen you hallucinate an alternate reality that contradicted the very video you posted to prove your point.
@agnophilo - By now you would think you would know I have no problems siting sources. To what point do you want to say i am inaccurate?
No, there is no case to be made. We are all human beings living on the same planet. Learning to play well with others opens up doors of opportunity. Limiting those relationships limits one’s chances for opportunity. After all, the only thing that basically distinguishes us from plants is a cell wall.
@LannyBudd - I like the equality aspects of your philosophy, but am not a fan of your seeming fatalism
@ImNotUglyIJustNeedLove - You might want to look at the link I put up on my entry. You may already know it but the $.70 to the $1.00 due to discrimination is not something that is at all supported by facts.
@trunthepaige -
Neither am I. I am a brother of the wolf. I am an equal part of nature. It is very difficult for me to watch the destruction of our environment without attempting to voice my concerns.
how is sucky academic performance from boys a sign of discrimination? having been a high school tutor for a while, the girls were the only ones who cared much about their grades. most of the guys thought they could get into college via sports scholarships, academics be damned. perhaps we need to do a better job of teaching boys to care about their grades.
also, your point kind of fails when, at the very end, you do concede that there is pay discrimination between the sexes…
@mtngirlsouth -
yes, i feel so sorry for your son being born into a majority population /eyeroll.
This makes me think of the workplaces my husband has been. The IT field is not one that a lot of women are drawn to, so there tend to be less women just because of their own personal preferences. And then when you do have women, you see them getting hired over someone more qualified just because they’re a woman and a ‘quota’ needs to be filled. At one of the last places my husband worked, there was a woman there that had been hired. She was getting paid the same as him. But, he ended up having to do a lot of her work because she didn’t know what she was doing yet and she was very new to IT. It got so bad that my husband was always coming home angry because he was getting behind on his own work because his boss told him to help the new girl do her job. He was basically having to do two jobs and getting paid for only one. She did eventually get fired when the boss finally realized she couldn’t do her own job, no matter how much help anyone gave her.
The moral of this story isn’t to say women are stupid or that they shouldn’t get equal wages. My point is that they are often hired in place of a man just because they’re a woman, even if they aren’t as good at their job.
@trunthepaige - Any of them would be nice. Especially the women getting paid the same for the same work claim.
@ImNotUglyIJustNeedLove - It is physically impossible for you to see me hallucinate anything, and your logic is that her unsupported claims are credible because I’m delusional? It doesn’t work that way, attacking me doesn’t justify someone else’s position.
There was a time when white males had substantial advantages over women and minorities. The most popular college major for women is psychology, I believe. Which had few job prospects. Men are more likely to do science, and are more likely to get jobs. Women are not taught to be ambitious like boys. Boys are supposed to do all the work, women are not.
@firetyger - A society where men occasionally get the raw end of the deal is better than one where women exclusively do.
@agnophilo - Guess again. It does work that way. If you think it doesn’t, you are hallucinating.
How did I know that? Did I see it?
No. I know it because you wrote your hallucination in plain English.
@agnophilo - I put a link in the entry for you.
@agnophilo - Any more areas where you doubt me let me know. I always can back up the things I claim are facts. Pure opinion is clearly labeled as such
@tjordanm - You pretty much covered it as well as the fact that to this day woman are more likely to willingly take a break from their careers and to intentionally work part time
@flapper_femme_fatale - No there isn’t did you read the link at the bottom?
@flapper_femme_fatale - Ok the guys just sucked. got it its not a problem our schools are prefect. But doesn’t it seem to indicate that there is no reason to be promoting things that supposedly help girls? They do not need any help, they do not need title nine, they do not need any effort to get them into engineering schools, or to increase the number of female math teachers
@flapper_femme_fatale - DOnt worry he unlike you, will never be raised to think of himself as a victim
@LannyBudd - That is good, I hate giving up and being fatalistic
There are way too many factors such as location, type of occupation, payment method, perks, etc to account for for these studies to be accurate. Just like most studies, I’m sure groups will pick and choose the best or worst outliers for their agendas.
@coolmonkey - Have you ever met someone who works side by side with anyone, doing the same job, for the same amount of time, who made less only because they were a woman? But I suppose using your standards, they never could say that woman were being paid less for the same job. That makes the entire issue moot i guess
@trunthepaige - You have to find a guy and girl that got hired at the same time, do the same job, and have identical work ethic.
@coolmonkey - No they did it by surveying a large varied group. that cuts out the indavial case and only looks for what is generaly true. That $.06 difernce is the averge. Now if there was any truth to the $.35 difference we would all know woman who were being screwed over. and it would be easy to have found it in the research
The business I work for pays the same regardless of gender. The pay rate is set before anyone is interviewed.
@trunthepaige -
no, i just took you at your word… ” the women made 93% of what the men were making. In other words, 93 cents to the man’s dollar. Not 77 cents. Not 81 cents. Ninety-three cents.” that’s a discrepancy, yes?
“They do not need any help”
according to what? the results are WITH such policies being implemented, not without. Title IX, for example, only applies to schools that receive federal funding. i’m sure there are a few out there that don’t, and i’d love to see some stats to see if they can reach gender equality without it being enforced through law.
personally, as long as there is an ideology teaching that women are inferior to men, i support any legal efforts geared toward minimizing its presence in the public sphere. i remember this chick in high school who wanted to play hockey. the school had to let her, but she was harassed for the rest of the year and eventually transferred elsewhere. it was sad, but it demonstrates why this is still needed.
@trunthepaige -
um… i don’t think of myself as a victim. and actually, it’d appear that what she’s teaching him (it sucks to be a white male) is instilling a sense of victimization. i imagine that if her son grows up to be a man who respects women and doesn’t think of himself as superior to them in any way, shape or form, he’ll be just fine.
@ImNotUglyIJustNeedLove - You are funny.
I’ll argue that there is discrimination with women but it’s coming more from other women. There are few if any males I know under 40 that still carry that chauvinism. A few older men over 50 still have that misogyny but the chauvinism I’ve seen these days are from women themselves, just like you said seeing females as still ‘beneath’ men and victimizing females as ‘charity cases’.
@Amandascowen - I am going to do some entries about where I see real discrimination. Its not seen doing the same job that a man is doing. It not so much money anymore. It has more do to do with respect issues in all other areas of life. And I agree, I swear us girls sometimes seem to hate each other
@flapper_femme_fatale - Did you read the link? we can talk after you do
@flapper_femme_fatale - Who is teaching that?
I’m so glad a female is willing to admit this. Crap like this is why I spend so much time advocating for men’s rights these days. Feminists need to step off their high horse and realize they are now the privileged gender. The status-quo has changed.
I’ve always said that feminists don’t want equal rights. They want superior rights. Well guess what? Affirmative action later and that’s just what they’ve gotten.
We agree for a change. Oddly, The Saudis do too. Traffic would be lighter and we would have much less accidents if women were not allowed to drive.
@tendollar4ways - It never fails you agree with me and we still disagree
@secretbeerreporter - In some areas I would say you are right. But not in all
@secretbeerreporter - you know you hit on something. I’m getting beaten down right now for wanting men to write for my magazine which I labeled ‘feminist’ from FEMALES that don’t like the idea that I included men and advocate them as ‘feminist’ and supportive of so called ‘equal rights’ like i’m inviting the enemy into a private club. The definition in the dictionary of the word ‘feminism’ is not gender specific, affirmative action I see as prejudice, it’s validating that one does not think another is ‘equal’. I was living in MI when that whole scandel of the girl from U of M accused the college of picking a ‘black’ over her just becuase he was african American and she was a ‘white upper middle classed’. I see that as racist.
@tendollar4ways - now you know that is not true. No statistics have ever proved that females that have been in power have ever ‘damaged’ the world. This is coming from a person that calls themselves “ten dollar4 way’? What accidents? Name some.
@Amandascowen - The US had 31,000 motor vehicle deaths in 2012. The SDMV reported 665. Even if you throw out the asian drivers who are notoriously horrible, it statistically impossible to deny number of deaths on anything other than female in-autotude.
Saudis are jerks but they are correct when it comes to public safety.
I sure am happy our Lord and Savior Obama is our new redemption:
Lord and Savior Obama
How is your mortgage bill coming along SHEEPLE???
@tendollar4ways - They are great at lowering the theft rates as well. Just cut off a hand or two
@Amandascowen - Sometimes all you can do is smile
@LadyboyRevolution - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KI-BCbKuJGA
@trunthepaige - OMG! F*****IDIOTS! Hitler himself would turn in his grave! Excuse my language…..
@trunthepaige -
When the democrats themselves are attacking “Jesus” (Obama) you think there is a brain cell left in the left???
This is why I refuse to ride my motorcycles on the road. The general populous has a drivers license.
@secretbeerreporter - I’m not sure if they’re superior, or simply brought men down. I feel that’s really what they accomplished.
You know I haven’t looked at the percentile of the wage equity in a while, you may be right, I think it has increased in the past few years of the recession for women. 85-90% does seem more likely than 77% now that I think about it. Although I’ll argue that we are becoming more ‘mae centric’ due to our culture’s trend of gender neutral education (toys and educational games) which are ‘pc’, meaning no pink and blue and not girly.
You cited a link that says that yes, women are paid less on average than men as proof that they’re not paid less?
@agnophilo - Oh wow it showed that we are paid $.07 less on the dollar. Me thinks that little proves nothing at all. The common believe is that is all about being less aggressive about pay raises . Ether way its an irreverent difference. Not a singe of gender discrimination
@Amandascowen - We are treated like meat in general but at work we are paid the same as guys. Buesnesses do not pay woman less for the same job. Nor do they force us into lower paying jobs. I would like to see the latest on this because during these recession (which is far from over) male dominated high paying blue collar jobs were hit hardest. Unemployment in the construction industry is still ultra high
@trunthepaige - Actually women get paid about 20 cents less on the dollar, but only 7 cents of that is attributable to discrimination/bias and the rest is due to women lagging behind men in those fields, which is largely attributable to historical disparities in education and pervasive discrimination which is just now being fully remedied. Yes women are better off than they were and are far closer to being treated equally, but they aren’t quite there yet by any metric.
I’ve worked for both male and females, I prefer working for women, they have less ego to boost and will actually listen to feedback
@agnophilo - In other words most of the $.20 is by choice. Woman choose to work fewer hours and take time out of a career to raise kids. SO there is no issue of anything being wrong. Its nothing that needs to be fixed
@trunthepaige - Not what I said. A few years ago was the first time in US history that women (who make up the majority of the population) made up the majority of people attending college. The number of women with advanced degrees isn’t going to instantaneously match the number of men with advanced degrees the second that happens. A generation or two from now women will potentially make the same as men. But as it stands they in no sense make the same, even when you control for level of experience and qualifications.
@agnophilo - Again when you subtract the life choices woman make, that take them out of the work force. The difference in pay is inquisitional. I am thinking that its unlikely that woman will ever not be more likely to choose child rearing over a career than men are. Woman are far less likely to make their top priority. Because of that there will always be a pay gap. And that is not a bad thing at all, I would hate to see it ever happen were both men and woman make their careers there number one priority.
@trunthepaige - Inquisitional? If someone is making a thousand bucks a month take home pay 70 extra dollars a month isn’t nothing. And it’s not simply life decisions any more than freed slaves “decided” to not have as much wealth or the same level of education for x generations. Whenever a group is kept down they’re not going to catch up right away even with a level playing field.
@agnophilo - Damn auto correct *inconsequential
@agnophilo - Your making the assumption that the 7 cents is discrimination and not a lack of aggression. Honesty I have yet to meet the person whose job pays woman less. That said few make only 12,00o a year. And no one really is being paid less because they are a woman. There are studies that say the 7 cents is all about not asking for a raise (woman ask for raises far less often than men do). But with woman not putting the same priority on careers as men do, why does 7 cents make you start talking about slavery? If that was the case then you would be pushing for us all to be 10% less slaves and cut taxes that much. That $70 can be saved packing your own lunch and brewing you own coffee. Actuality those two things would save you a lot more than that
@trunthepaige - ”Your making the assumption that the 7 cents is discrimination and not a lack of aggression. “
As your study said, it can’t be accounted for statistically. That it’s a lack of aggression is one possibility. Another is discrimination.
“Honesty I have yet to meet the person whose job pays woman less. “
I’ve yet to meet someone who then died of cancer, but it happens every day. And are you now saying women get paid the same as men? Even your study says 20% less.
“That said few make only 12,00o a year.”
Your point?
“And no one really is being paid less because they are a woman. There are studies that say the 7 cents is all about not asking for a raise (woman ask for raises far less often than men do). “
That’s possible. So is discrimination.
“But with woman not putting the same priority on careers as men do, why does 7 cents make you start talking about slavery?”
I didn’t equate it to slavery, I was talking about institutionalized inequality not being corrected overnight and using slavery as an example.
“If that was the case then you would be pushing for us all to be 10% less slaves and cut taxes that much.”
Again, not what I was saying.
“That $70 can be saved packing your own lunch and brewing you own coffee. Actuality those two things would save you a lot more than that”
So if 7% of your wages are inconsequential you wouldn’t mind a 7% tax increase?
Anyone who believes that wage discrimination against women exists, especially at the magnitude it’s hyped up to be even though wage/salary discrimination is illegal in all 50 states based on gender, race, etc. is mentally retarded. Unfortunately, that includes our own president.
@agnophilo - Still masturbating to pictures of Nancy Pelosi, I take it?
@Chibi_Son_Gokou - Source or go away.
@Chibi_Son_Gokou - I don’t even know who you are. Nor do I care to.
@agnophilo - Hold on, I’ll go call Chris Matthews and use him as a “source”.
@Chibi_Son_Gokou - In other words your claim has no basis in reality and in your mind bashing me as being partisan (when I’m really not, nor by the way have I ever watched chris matthews’ show) makes that fact stop being true.
If you learn to set your ego aside and just explore reality you will be a lot happier.
@agnophilo - But I was not acting as if the .07 was being forced on me. You seem to think the differences in pay between men and woman is institutionalized when no one can think of anywhere where that is the case. And I make far more than .07 above average for my position in my company. That I do by being very aggressive about it. It seems discrimination should need to be proved before people start calling for the force of law to make companies prove that the reason they pay a secretary less than a truck driver is because its a lot harder to be a truck driver than a secretary. No one would take the job of long haul truck driver for a secretaries wadges. And very few woman want the job of truck driver even though they are as welcomed to it as men are. yet it is the difference in pay between truck driver and secretary that is often used to make the case for discrimination. Discrimination needs to be proved not just asserted
@trunthepaige - 1) anecdotal evidence is never valid, and you have to know it would take two seconds to find a counter-example to your personal experience. 2) nobody said anything about legislation, I was just disagreeing that the disparity doesn’t exist. And 3) that men and women will become truck drivers at different rates and that all professions do not pay equally well are both largely beside the point, since the study we’re talking about controlled for both elements. Do you think a female truck driver with the same amount of experience and qualification as a male truck driver, who does their job just as well should be paid, on average, 7% less than he is?
@flapper_femme_fatale -
There are actual legitimate reasons for this. One of the biggest is that when a woman has a child she leaves the workforce. Assume she leaves the workforce for three years, hypothetical. When she returns she has 3 years less experience than any man her age who has been in the workforce longer. Of course there is going to be a pay discrepancy. And its not because of discrimination its because of experience.
When you take out all the variables. the pay gap is statistically gone. It is still perpetuated for electoral reasons.
@firetyger - My Mom has to do the job of her male coworker. 1 anecdote =/= the norm
@agnophilo - You do not like the research or the anecdotal evidence me thinks you are just being suborn
@ShimmerBodyCream - I didn’t say that what happened in my husband’s situation is happening everywhere. In fact, I’m sure it’s not. But the reason I presented it was because he works in a field most women have no interest in and the bias is pretty obvious. This isn’t the first time it has happened to him. He’s worked for more than a few companies revolving solely around IT and this situation has cropped up frequently.
@agnophilo - not to spoil your point but wikipedia is not a good source.
Overall, I think it’s typical but there are a lot of companies now that are women only that blatantly say to men, You are not welcome. My point being that it often depends on the company itself and the sample data from which the statistics are being taken. The highest paid person in our client services division was a woman and many of the managers who made good money were women. I can’t say that if a man was hired for those positions that they would be paid more.
I wonder what the basis is when there is an obvious inequality in a workplace. Are women deemed less reliable emotionally than men but not necessarily less intelligent? I feel that bias is most often at play more so than intelligence.
@Bobby - See trun’s source which shows that even controlling for experience there is still a 7% discrepancy.
@trunthepaige - Anecdotal evidence is widely regarded as a logical fallacy and as I said would anecdotal evidence prove the reverse of your point? And I’m agreeing with your source, what more do you want? I even agreed that your explanation might be true, but that your source’s explanation might also be true (I’ve yet to see conclusive evidence).
@Yorokobi1010 - No, but the sources it cites often are. And I’ve yet to see a source that shows credible evidence (or any) that there is no pay discrepancy between men and women.
@trunthepaige -
i know many people who believe in strictly defined gender roles, and the roles for women are usually less lucrative and independent than the roles for men.
@Bobby -
” One of the biggest is that when a woman has a child she leaves the workforce. “
that would make sense if only working mothers were paid less. to my understanding, the stats don’t support that. as a woman, i have zero interest in kids. it’s sexist of someone to assume that because i have a vagina, i want to procreate.
and… three years? i’ve never heard of that. all the working mothers i know took a few months off at most.
@flapper_femme_fatale - The state show that as a very big factor. Career trake woman do as well as men do. As for gender roles in the work place. people choice to work the jobs they want. Yes long haul truck drivers make more money than secretaries. But nothing is stopping woman from being long haul truck drivers. As a matter of fact those jobs are available right now if you want to be one. But very few woman want that job
@agnophilo - As long as woman are less career motivated than men are their should be a wadge gape
@trunthepaige -
what does that have to do with it? the wage gap issue is based on a man and woman with the same skill set working the same position.
also, i have to address…
“As long as woman are less career motivated than men are their should be a wadge gape”
then that should be present when a woman IS less career motivated than a man. my issue is when someone assumes that because i’m a 27-year-old female, i’ll eventually want to leave the workforce and have children. THAT’S sexism.
@flapper_femme_fatale - Career motivated woman already make as much as men do. How hard and long you push, how much of your home life you are willing to give up. That makes a huge difference in what you are paid. And it should
@trunthepaige - Your source controlled for experience and qualification…
Echo, echo, echo…
@agnophilo - yes but nothing is going to change you mind.
@trunthepaige - Facts and evidence would. Got any?
@agnophilo - I gave you enough you have no interest in the truth
@trunthepaige - I agreed 100% with your source, what you talkin’ bout Willis?
@agnophilo - I will need to make the the subject a single long entry one day and not a fast list of things that people refuse to accept. At least you noticed that the 20% number is being used deceitfully
@trunthepaige - I don’t think it’s necessarily deceitful, some of the remaining 13% is probably due to women being automatically expected to raise the kids and women not yet catching up to men in terms of academic and career achievement from a time when women were held down in an explicit, institutionalized way (it was only a few decades ago). Similarly men and women can both run for public office but women don’t make up 51% of congress despite being 51% of the general population. That is a genuine thing women’s groups have a right to be concerned with and raise awareness of. But I agree the 20% figure should have an asterisk next to it.
@agnophilo - Raising kids is something that most of us want to do. Its not imposed on us
@trunthepaige - True, but if a man and a woman are both professionals it shouldn’t be assumed the woman will stay at home and the man will work.
@agnophilo - It may not be assumed but there is a difference between men and woman what motivates them. On average these differences will show themselves. And woman on average are more maternal. That is not a bad thing but it takes you away from the job.
@trunthepaige - That is probably true, but there’s no way that I can think of to quantify it.
@agnophilo - Discrimination needs to be illegal. My point is that the burden of proof should not be relaxed (prove yourself innocent) based numbers that really do not prove discrimination.
@trunthepaige - To my knowledge people are not considered guilty until proven innocent, and like with any civil case the burden is on the accuser to prove they were injured by the other party’s actions.
@agnophilo - They want to make it were business need to prove they do not discriminate. That makes paying a better employee (Harder driving more aggressive) not a good idea if it trough off your numbers. Law suit based only on male female pay differences even if you can win them are simply not worth it
@trunthepaige - Do you have a link about this? I think it should be that it’s the law that you can’t discriminate which allows people to sue and auto-correct actual discrimination (also allowing them to subpoena financial records etc).